Islanders' saying Torano for Solander, and their being obliged to say but Polini when Tpolini would have been their equivalent for Sporing; but that it is a polished substitute in the French language, thus-action=acseon, while the English make it in such cases = sh. Then, as to r, we get that from k=ks=r, not only on the foregoing natural principles, but because in the French word action, the ct=kt = ks = x, which appears quite as rational as Greek aggang English. As to classification, 8, the interchangeableness of landr being well known, the Society Islanders pronouncing Solander Torani, and Sporing Polini, furnish corroborative illustrations. In dealing thus with classification 11, as ƒ is the twin of v, and v being but a condition of b, as in the Manx bea: = life; y vea the life, which peculiarity both Welsh and Gaelic exhibit; and as b is twin of p, and its natural equivalent, as in the Society Islanders' pronunciation of Bougainville, Potaviri, we bring the matter to a close, clearly, I hope, though briefly explained, and, with the statement of my informant, I trust, confirmed. J. BEALE.

STANTON HARCOURT: SEPARATION OF SEXES IN WORSHIP.

(4th S. ii. 132.)

The division of sexes in public worship is of the highest antiquity in the church. S. Cyril says, "Let a separation be made, that men be with men, and women with women in the church." Socrates tells us that S. Helena (mother of Constantine) "always submitted to the discipline of the church in this respect, praying with the women in the women's part." S. Chrysostom says, "Men ought to be separated from women by an inward wall, meaning that of the heart; but because they would not, our fathers separated them by these wooden walls." Sir George Wheler, in his work on the Primitive Churches, 1689, says:

"That the men were anciently separated from the women and the men again subdivided in the Latin church, also is manifest from that fragment of an inscription found at Rome and mentioned by Dr. Cave, Ex dextra parte virorum.' So that there were stations for the men on the right hand and on the left; and that the station for the men is mentioned, it shows also that there was a distinct station or stations for the women; for the virgins also had a distinct station from the married women, as Origen shows; which were undoubtedly either the aisles, on either hand, or the galleries over them, or both, as it is in the Greek Church to this day."

venient place nigh the quire, the men on the one side, and the women on the other side."

Bishop Montague, in his Visitation Articles, 1638, asks:

"Do men and women sit together in those seats in

differently and promiscuously? or (as the fashion was of old) do men sit together upon one side of the church, and

women upon the other?"

The custom prevails at Florence and in the diocese of Bayeux, also at Milan, Venice, Boppart, and Bonn. In Brittany men occupy the nave, and women are seated in the aisles. In Dutch churches the women almost always sit apart from the men; the former on rush-bottomed chairs in front of the pulpit, the latter in pews.

The Rev. S. W. King, in his Italian Valleys of the Pennine Alps (p. 225), says:

"Remaining over the Sunday, in the absence of any English service, we went to the Vaudois church. The women were ranged on one side of the centre aisle, the men on the other, and the costumes of the latter showed that they were chiefly from the Protestant valleys, not Turinese."

The following are a few examples (among many) of the observance of this custom in England: Durham Cathedral; Haversham, Bucks; Coton, near Cambridge; S. Pratt, Blisland, Cornwall; Westbury-on-Severn, Gloucester; Canon Pyon, and Sutton S. Nicholas, Herefordshire; Hayes, Kent; Witton, Ditchingham, and Hemsby, Norfolk; Bulkington, Warwick.

Your correspondent asks for examples of a door, as at Stanton Harcourt, used by females only. At St. Bride's (Kildare) there were actually two doors, two chancel arches, and a partition running along the centre of the nave from east to

west. The north door of a church is often called traditionally the "bachelors' door."

JOHN PIGGOT, JUN. F.S.A.

His mother, however, is the most interesting person to me. May I ask once more, does ANGLO-SCOTUS, or any other of your correspondents, know of any contemporary authority for identifying this Margaret, widow of John Comyn, with Margaret Wake de Lydel, afterwards Countess of Kent? There is, I know, strong pre

in one

In the first Prayer-Book of Ed. VI.-Rubrick in the Communion Service :

"Then as many as shall be partakers of the Holy Communion shall tarry still in the quire, or in some con

certain the truth on this point beyond doubt. Dugdale says that in 3 Ed. III. [1329] Edmund Earl of Kent had livery of the lands of his wife Margaret lying in Tindale, she being then the widow of John Comyn of Badenoch (Baronage, ii. 93); and he concludes this John Comyn to have

been the Comyn who fell at Stirling, and of whose wife Margaret Mr. Riddell found the notice referred to by ANGLO-SCOTUS. Is this proof sufficient of the identity of these-Margarets? or was there any other John Comyn of Badenoch whose wife Margaret Wake could be? Margaret Wake was born in or before 1299 (when her father died), and therefore would be at least sixteen when Comyn was killed at Stirling.

Concerning Margaret Wake, is anything known of the date of her second marriage? Blore says (Hist. Rutland, pp. 38-9.), after enumerating her children-Edmund, John, Margaret, and Joan

that:

"Milles mentions two other sons, Robert and Thomas; but the space of time being little more than four years between the death of the Lord Comyn, the first husband of the Countess Margaret, and the death of Edmund, renders the statement very improbable."

Now, instead of four years between the deaths of John and Edmund, there were no less than fifteen, as is witnessed by the Inquisition of Comyn, which, though not taken until 19 Ed. II. [1325-6], distinctly states that Comyn died on Monday, the Nativity of St. John Baptist, Anno 8 Edwardi II. [June 24, 1315]. As this Inquisition makes no mention of his son Ademar, but asserts that his heirs were his two sisters, we may fairly conclude that Ademar was then dead. Now, in 1315, Edmund Earl of Kent was but fourteen years of age, so that it may be presumed that his marriage with Margaret did not take place immediately on the death of Comyn; but if we suppose it to have been delayed for five years after that event, there was ample time for the birth of all the children mentioned by Milles, especially as we know from his Probatio ætatis that one of them was a posthumous son. Are these two sons, then, Robert and Thomas, genuine children of Edmund Earl of Kent, or is the insertion of their names a blunder, considering that some who mention them omit Edmund and John, of whose reality there can be no doubt? If Margaret Wake were the mother of sons named Robert and Thomas, they must have died before 1351, if not before 1333.

HERMENTRUde.

I must be allowed to correct an error in my remarks on the Cumine family (antè, p. 85). I there stated that the family of Cumine of Kinindmond "is believed to be extinct." By a courteous communication from "A. R." I find that this is a mistake, as that family is represented, through the female line, by Mr. Russell of Aden, in Aberdeenshire, whose mother was heiress and representative of that branch of the house of Comyn or Cumine.

When speaking of a Scottish family having become extinct, it must be kept in mind that there is always a possibility of some of its descendants

being still to be found on the Continent, whether in Northern Europe or in France, or even Spain. It was so common a custom for the younger sons of good Scottish families to seek their fortune in foreign countries, generally by arms, but sometimes also in trade, that it is no wonder that many families are still found in the districts I have mentioned, bearing good Scottish names, and undoubtedly offshoots of the old Scottish stocks, although the actual connection is seldom traceable.

ANGLO-SCOTUS will, if my memory serves me, find a pedigree of the "Cumines of Culter" in vol. ii. of Nisbet's Heraldry. C. E. D.

ST. THOMAS-A-BECKETT AND SYON COPE: THE COPES OF WATERFORD, ETC. (4th S. ii. 65, 141.)

P. A. L. asks how came the copes, chasubles, &c. mentioned by me (p. 66) as having been bestowed by Pope Innocent III. on the cathedral church of Waterford, the property of the late Right Rev. Dr. Foran, Catholic Bishop of Waterford, and presented by him to the Earl of Shrewsbury, Waterford, and Wexford, and placed at Alton Towers? P. A. L. adds, that had they been left in the cathedral, they would not have been destroyed when Alton-Towers was burnt down. Your correspondent F. C. H., as well as I remember, in the previous number of "N. & Q." states that the earl made a present of them to St. Mary's College, Oscott, and that they are in the museum of that college. As to the query how they became the property of Dr. Foran, I will endeavour to explain. These copes, among other valuables, were disposed of soon after the introduction of the new liturgy in 1551, by the then Dean and Chapter of Waterford to the Corpora tion of that city, in return for a bond in the penal sum of 4007., to the effect that if the Dean and Chapter should be impleaded for the church rights and lands, the Corporation should, from time to time, give them as much of the value of the "jewels" as should sustain their pleas at law. And if the Dean and Chapter should afterwards purchase any living for the use and maintenance of the church, the corporation should give them so much as remained in their hands. The "jewels" consisted of the copes, and of the following parcels of plate: Two candlesticks of silver gilt, weighing four score ounces; a cross of silver, double gilt, weighing 126 ounces; a standing cup of silver (a chalice), weighing 105 ounces; a standing cup of silver (a chalice), double gilt, weighing 28 ounces; a cross of silver, double gilt, weighing 49 ounces; five censers of silver, "whereof two are partly gilt," weighing 211 ounces; a monstrant (a monstrance) with two angels of silver

"belief that the mere legal ceremony of marriage was absolutely performed," pp. 103-7, to which work I refer your correspondent. WILLIAM BATES.

Birmingham.

66

In answer to J. I., I can proffer him, if not the best, a well-founded authority. Thackeray (English Humourists) says it is undoubted that "Swift was married with Hester Johnson (Stella)." But this author admits that "Esther Van Homrigh had contracted a violent passion for him." Lord Orrery says: Vanessa... happy in the thoughts of being reported Swift's concubine." There is the version of Thackeray in the beginning of his essay on Swift. This author admits that Johnson, about the famous Stella and Vanessa controversy, does not bear very hard on Swift. In the end, Thackeray says: "He (Swift) wanted to marry neither of them,-that, I believe, was the truth; but if he had not married Stella, Vanessa would have had him in spite of himself... The news of the Dean's marriage with Stella at last came to her, and it killed her. She died of that passion.' Scott gives a similar account. In a note in his biography he says that his friend Dr. Turke, of Dublin, has a lock of Stella's hair enclosed in a paper by Swift, on which are written, in the Dean's hand, the words "Only a woman's hair." The marriage of Swift with Stella seems beyond all question. Belgium.

OTTO MATTHIEU.

the De Imitatione Christi, let me remark that the locution is not confined to that beautiful book. Du Cange says in his Dictionary, sub voce: —

"Exterius discere pro memoriter discere, scripsit Buschius de Reform. monastic. Scire exterius: locutio A. R.

Belgica, ut observat Falconet."

CLEANLINESS (4th S. ii. 47.)-Does not simplex munditiis allude to the neatness and cleanliness of the young lady whom Horace is describing? Had not Somerville that same much-vexed passage in his eye when he wrote of a dog-kennel ("Chase," book i. p. 10, line 147) — "For use, not state,

Gracefully plain, let each apartment rise."
J. WILKINS, B.C.L.

"No LOVE LOST" (4th S. i. 29.) - This phrase, having the same meaning as it has in the ballad of "The Babes in the Wood," occurs in a tale of the days of Shakspeare, entitled "Montchensey," which is contained in Noontide Leisure, by Nathan Drake, M.D. (Cadell, 1824.) Shakspeare himself figures as one of the characters. The following words are put into his mouth by the author :"Give me your hand, Master Simon, and let me tell you, to use a right pithy, though somewhat homely I hope soon, inphrase, there is no love lost between us. deed, to be better acquainted both with you and your pupil Hubert, truant though he be!"

It may be inferred from the above that the saying was in common use, with this meaning, in the time of the great bard. D. MACPHAIL. Paisley.

MARC ANTONY AS BACCHUS (4th S. ii. 36, 115.) I am much obliged to my friend MR. BUCKTON. My head is that of Marc Antony as Bacchus, and not of Bacchus. It was never supposed to be a Bacchus, as it is too old. My idea is that it was, as the style suggests, executed in the school of Ephesus when Antony was there, and, after his fall, mutilated. It is very likely another face was substituted on the statue. As MR. BUCKTON says, Ephesus produced good wine, but does so no longer, though there are plenty of wines on

* Ennius apud Cic. De Senect. iv. § 10.

the hills above Chirkinji. good Muscat.

32, St. George's Square, S.W.

Samos still produces HYDE CLARKE.

BUMMER (4th S. i. 75, 163, 467.)—Bummer is a slang word used in this district to signify a person who is given to talking in a boasting manner; also, to one who utters much idle and foolish talk. It is only used among a certain class of people. Those who are choice in their language never use it.

Bumming is equivalent to "humming," as the bumming of bees. Bees are sometimes called here bumbees. Hence, a bummer may be a person who bums like a bee, that is, utters a deal of empty D. MACPHAIL. sound to no purpose. Paisley.

ANONYMOUS (4th S. ii. 156.)—English Retraced, by Rev. James Gurnhill, of Emmanuel College, Cambridge, now Curate of Sigglesthorne, near J. T. F. Hull.

Winterton, near Brigg.

SIR WALTER RALEIGH'S DESCENDANTS (4th S. ii. 164.)- In my communication, after This Captain William Elwes had four or five sons, who all appear to have died (without issue)," &c., it should have been (without issue male). Might I ask you to put this in as corrigenda, otherwise the commencement of the communication contradicts the latter part of it, as I say that I believe Mary Elwes was the wife of one of Capt. William Elwes' sons, and that she leaves property to her daughter. (She was the widow of John Elwes, the eldest son of Captain William Elwes, who died sometime previous to 1763.)

South Bersted, Bognor.

DUDLEY CARY ELWES.

JASPER MAYNE: VERSES TO HENRIETTE MARIE (4th S. ii. 147.)-So little is known of the Archdeacon of Chichester's writings as a poet, save his two comedies, that the general reader is much obliged by MR. BOLTON CORNEY'S communication of a poem enshrined in a solitude far from the public eye. As attention has been called to compound words, at times better separated, I will ask permission to refer to line thirty-five of this pleasing effusion on a lady who, I fear me, little deserved the praise bestowed upon her:

'Nothing did with thing agree.

I think the sense would be more strongly marked by separating the first word: thus

"No thing did with thing agree."

F. R.

SUDBURGH (4th S. ii. 135.)—There is no place in Wiltshire named Sudburgh. The tomb of Sir Robert de Vere is in the church of Sudburgh or Sudborow, near Drayton, in co. Northampton. See Halstead's Genealogies. E. W.

BOOKS PLACED EDGEWISE IN OLD LIBRARIES (4th S. i. 577; ii. 44.)—

"It was on the eighth morning of his residence at New Place that Montchensey, though still somewhat lame and occasionally suffering much pain, ventured, with the permission of his friendly physician Dr. Hall, to leave his chamber. On reaching the vestibule, he was shown by a servant into the library, with information that his master, who was at present engaged, would be with him in a short time.

"This room, which Shakspeare called his own, had, together with an eastern aspect, a pleasant look-out into the garden, and was very neatly fitted up in the Gothic style, with carved oaken presses well stored with books, of which the leaves, and not the backs, being placed in front, and these decorated with silken strings, and occasionally with gold and silver clasps, in order to confine the sides of the covers, not only contrasted well with the dark hue of the oak, but gave a light and cheerful appearance to the apartment."—Noontide Leisure, i. 38, 39.

The author adds the following in a foot-note :— "For a more minute account of the mode of arranging and decorating books in a library at this period, see Shakespeare and his Times, vol. i. p. 436. D. MACPHAIL.

Paisley.

HUMBER (4th S. ii. 129.)-Your correspondent E. S. W. lives sufficiently near to Brough to know what acquaintance the Romans had with the Humber. His derivation from imber is, in a certain sense, not new.

The most ancient district of Italy was Umbria; and in Etruria, which adjoined, flowed the river Umbro, while in the neighbourhood of the Tiber was a lake called Umber. These names are generally derived from imber (bußpos, meaning sometimes water), though the explanations are occasionally different. See, for instance, Dr. Adam Littleton's Lat. Dict. s. v. "Umbria." The same learned lexicographer and divine derives umbra, a shade, likewise from this source, and adds: "Umbra à terrâ, cujus etiam

Carisbrooke.

J. A. G.

chroa, xpóa, post humbra, umbra, i. terræ color." Humbra is given in Coles's Latin Dict. as an equivalent for Humber. This accounts for a statement made to me by a clever but eccentric schoolmaster: that the Humber owes its name to its colour, being that of the Tiber-not the flavus of