. I understood his Majefty to affent. My Lords, I cannot repeat in this House the expreffion uled by my Sovereign. I have already ftated that I understood his Majesty to afsent to the mafure. I now find that there was a mifunderstanding upon the fubject. More than this, my Lords, in confequence of our conceiving that his Majesty had affented to the measure, a bill was prepared, embracing the objects which I have already ftated, and which bill one of my colleagues (Lord Howick) prefeated to his Majefty, for his approbation, previous to its being brought forward in Parliament. When I mention Lord Howick, it is needless to state the strict, high, and punctilious honour which actuates his conduct. He certainly understood his Majefty to affent to the bill's being propofed. I was waiting to be introduced to an audience of his Majesty, when Lord Howick quitted his Majesty's prefence, and ftated to me, with the imprefiion recent on his mind, that his Majesty had confented to the introduction of the propofed *meature. This was on Wednesday the 4th of March. The bill, my Lords, was propofed the next day, by Lord Howick, in another place; and, fupported by that clear and convincing eloquence which he always difplays, it was approved of by many of the most respect able characters in Parliament. My Lords, it was not till the Wednesday following, one week afterwards, that I understood his Majefty to diffent to the propofed measure; and then, undoubtedly, I did understand that there had been a mifapprehenfion in fuppofing that his Majesty had given his confent to the meafure to the extent to which it was proposed to carry it. Having, however, afcertained that his Majefty did difapprove of the measure, the ftep which ought then to be adopted became a fubject of anxious confideration amongst his Majefty's Minifters-The first resolution to which we came, in our anxiety to conform to his Majefty's feelings, and at the fame time to effect fome part of the object which we had in view was, to modify the bill, and to render it nothing more than the bill of 1793, extended to this country without any enlargement of its provisions. My Lords, I carried this refolution on the Friday following to his Majefty, who graciously expressed his approbation of it. When, however, his Majesty's Minifters came to confider the fubject more fully, it was found to be utterly impracticable to to modify the bill, and at the fame time to fupport it by any thing like argument. The bill was already before Parliament, and no poffibility appeared of being enabled to answer fatisfactorily the questions which would undoubtedly be put, as to the reasons for thus limiting the object of the bill, after propofing it on a much more enlarged fcale; nor did there appear any courie of argument by which the exclufion of Protestant Dissenters from the privileges granted to Catholics, or the excluGion of the latter from becoming Generals on the Staff, as originally propofed, could poflibly be fupported. His Majesty's Minifters there fore finding it impracticable to fupport the bill in its modified thape, at length came to a refolution, which cannot be defended upon a rigid principle, namely, to let the bill drop altogether. I am aware, my Lords, that this is the leaft juftifiable part of the conduct of his Majefty's Minifters upon strict and rigid principles; but I am sure that your Lordships will do justice to the motives which actuated our conduct; and if our conduct in that inftance cannot be juftified upon rigid principles, at least these motives will be confidered as a juftification. On coming, however, to this refolution, his Majesty's Minifters thought it their duty, aware that there was no hope of preventing the Catholics of Ireland from prefenting their petition to Parliament, and defirous, although they were prevented from expreffing any opinion of Government favourable to further conceffions to the Catholics, that they might exprefs their opinions as Members of Parliament refpecting the ftate of Ireland, and the policy or neceffity of fuch conceffions; convinced, alfo, that they ought to referve to themselves the right of advifing his Majesty respecting fuch measures as they might deem neceffary, with reference to the ftate of Ireland, came likewife to a refolution, humbly to fubmit to his Majefty, that in giving up the propofed bill, they should not be confidered as reftrained from giving fuch advice or propofing fuch meafures to his Majesty "for his decifion" as in their judgment should be called for by the state of Ireland. My Lords, I repeat thofe three words, " for his decifion," because they have been omitted in the partial and garbled statement of the minutes of Council which have been published, an omiffion than which nothing can more clearly fhew the defign which has been attempted to be carried into effect, of bafely calumniating our characters and mifreprefenting our conduct. My Lords, on carrying this refolution to his Majesty, I received a written requifition requiring that we should pledge ourselves not to propofe at any future time any further conseilions to the Catholics of Ireland, or any measure connected with that fubject. To this pledge we could not agree, confiftently with our oaths as privy councillors, for what, my Lords, does the oath of a privy councillor require? that he fhould give fuch advice to his Majesty without fear, favour, or affection, as he in the exercise of his judgment thall deem to be called for by the exigencies of public affairs; and how then can a privy councillor, without violating his oath, give a pledge which would prevent him from doing his duty, and which would preclude him, whatever might be the urgency of public affairs, from laying before his Majesty thefe confiderations which that urgency might demand? A privy councillor acting thus, would, after taking an oath to do his duty. give a pledge not to do his duty. Is it to the endured that a privy council or hall give a pledge, that whatever circumstances may arife in future, and however impericully they may demand the execution of a particular pezore, he fhall not lay before his Majefty the confideration of it? Can it be poffible that the noble lords on the other fide, who have fucceeded us, have given fuch a pledge as the condition of their coming into office, and that whatever may be the future ftate of Ireland, we are to be told whenever that fubject comes before Parliament, that they cannot lay the confideration of it before his Majesty. My Lords, fuch a principle ftrikes at the root of the conftitution, inasmuch as it tends to overthrow that excellent maxim, that "The King can do no wrong." Nothing can be more fatal to the interefts of the country, or pregnant with more danger to the conftitution, than the adoption and maintenance of fuch a principle. My Lords, we may have erred in our judgment, but we have done that which we conceived to be our duty. Let not thofe who have tucceeded us imagine that they have fucceeded to an caly talk. We did not fue ceed to "a bed of roles," neither have we left a bed of rofes. The commerce and the finances of the country we have left fomewhat better than we found them. Our foreign relations we have left in a better itate than we found them. Let me, however, call the ferious and anxious attention of Noble Lords on the other fide to the ftate of Ireland. If perfecution for the fake of differences in religious opinions were again to be revived in this country, can there be a question that it would produce the most dreadful diffentions, and if, my Lords, the fyftem acted upon in Ireland by the Noble Duke who reprefents his Majelty in that country, or the Earl of Hard wicke, his predeceffor, is to be reverfed, and a fyftem of perfecution, coercion, and restraint, to be fubftituted, no human being can forefee the incalculable mifchiefs that would result from fuch a fyftem. When we know that our enemy has fixed upon one point of the British dominions where he thinks invafion practicable, and that that point is Ireland, furely it requires more than ordinary care, more than ordinary measures, to remove the causes of all thofe unhappy diffentions which have given rife in that Country to thofe infurrections which have produced fuch dreadful effects. If they do not confider the ftate of Ireland with thefe views, the greatest danger nay refult to the interests of the empire. it. In fact, no member did indicate any fuch difpofition. No requifition, indeed, of that nature, was attempted to be made. If any fuch ftipulation had been asked, moft certainly I fhould have felt myfels bound by a sense of honour and or duty, immediately to decline At the fame time, however, that I came into office, retaining of courfe with other of my colleagues precifely the fame fentiment upon the Catholic queflion which we profefsed when out of power, ftill it could not be diffemoled that a well known difliculty ftood in the way of its fuccefs. As we came into power unfettered upon this point, and called upon, as we felt, by the nature of our fituation, to advise any measure which might ap pear to us expedient to adopt for the general fecurity of the country, and the benefit of the government, we muft naturally bear in mind thofe points to which we flood pledged, and for the fuccefs of which, from a conviction of their rectitude, we must be anxious; but ftill our refolution was not to prefs any queftion which might be hostile to the perfonal feelings of the king; for any attempt of that nature would have been, we felt, inconfiftent with the duty, the affection, and the respect we owed to our fovereign. With these prin ciples my colleagues entered into the admini ftration. Their opinion upon the merits of the Catholic claims were well known; but aware of the obstacles which prevented theit attainment, they hoped, by a prudent and conciliating fyftem of government, to reconcile the Catholics, and to keep the Catholic question at reft. They did however refolve, immediately upon their introduction to power, to turn their attention, in a very pe culiar degree, to the affairs of Ireland; and events occurred towards the clofe of the laft year, which ferved to augment their refolution. The ftate of that most valuable, and, I am afraid, most vulnerable part of the empire, engaged our moft ferious confideration; and the disturbances which notorioufly prevailed in the western part of that country naturally operated to increase our folicitude. The confe quence of thefe deliberations was a determi nation to adopt immediate means of tranqüillzing and conciliating the people of Ireland, and, although urged by a Right Honourable Gentleman, Mr. Perceval, much fonder of Lord Howick, on the fame day, in the the policy of force than I am, to refort to Commons, rofe and fpoke to the follow-meatures of extraordinary feverity--although ing effect: It is well known for it must be in the recollection of the houfe and of the country, what principles and opinions were held by the feveral members of the late administration upon the fubject of the Catholics, Their opinions, indeed, were but recently manifeftet in their speeches and their votes. They came into adminiftration with this general knowledge of their opinions, and furely it could not be fuppofed that any of thofe memSers would be capable of giving up his opinion for the fake of office and emolument. urged by him, rather eagerly as I remember, have recourse to rigour, we determined to at a very early period of the disturbances, to abitain from all feverity not warranted by the fpirit of the conftitution, and, thank God, we fucceeded in reftoring tranquility by reforting only to the juft operation of the law. expedient to be adopted for the conciliation of Among the measures which appeared to us as Ireland, the admillion of Catholics to hold commitions in the army and navy suggested itself as one of the firft. This we conceived not only fafe but proper to propofe without delay, in addition to the other reafons whic NnX prefented prefented themfelves in its favour, it ftruck us, in the prefent ftate of the empire, as particularly material to be attended to, promifing, as it did, to augment the means of recruiting our public force by the introduction of men into the fervice, which by the ill understood policy of the prefent fyftem had been altogether excluded. It was agreed, as I before obferved, that the catholics fhould, at least, have the fame privilege with regard to the holding of commiflions in this country as was granted to them by the law of Ireland. After much difcuffion it was the unanimous opinion of his Majesty's ministers, that this conceflion fhould be promptly made, as it appeared calculated to contribute to the tranquillity of Ireland; by holding out an encouragement to the gen tlemen of that country to enter into the army and navy in the hope of advancement; by taking off for the increase of the public force from what feemed a fuperabundant population; by drawing as it were even from the very fources of difcontent the means of our ftrength. Such was our view of the fubject. We looked to the conceffion, which I have not alluded to as an act likely to injure or even to alarm the interefts of the established church, but as one materially tending to fortify that intereft, because materially tending to the general intereft of the empire. For is not the strength of the country the means of fecurity to the established church? Can the one be fafe if the other be in danger? If Ire land were alienated from its connection with this country, where would be the fecurity of the empire? If fuch an alienation were to take place, what, in God's name, would become of the established church? upon what ground then can this meafure be propofed. which has fuch an obvious tendency to add to our strength, by fecuring the attachment of a great proportion of our people? The late minifters were as I have faid, clearly engaged in confidering the affairs of Ireland, and had arrived at a certain refult when they received difpatches from his excellency the lord lieutant, ftating, that the Catholics had manifefted a refolution to prefs their claims upon the attention of parliament. With the opinions that I hold, and the folicitude that I felt upon the fubject, I have no hesitation in faying, that I did by every means in my power, as far as private advice could extend, endeavour to diffaude the Catholics from fuch a proceeding. The knowledge however of their intention was an additional inducement with my colleagues to prefs forward the meafure of conceffion I have already defcribed. We had a hope that if promptly acceded to it might have the effect of inducing the Catholics to abandon the purfuit of an object which, from certain circumftances, they could not be unaware there was little reafon to hope for; while, at the fame time we felt that, both from principle and policy, the concellion ought to be made. We had little apprehenfion of encountering any objection in our endeavours to procure for the Catholics the fame privilege which was granted to them in Ireland by the act of 1795. For to this conceffion we recolled that the secretary of state for Ireland, and the lord chancellor of that country also, ftood fpecifically pledged at the time the law was enacted. This pledge, indeed, was on record in a difpatch from Lord Buckingham, then Mr. Hobart, in which the promise of this conceffion to the Irish Catholics was dif tinétly made. Confidering the measure, therefore, not more as an act of policy than as a neceflary evidence of confiftency, honour, and good faith, we determined to bring it forward. We did hope, indeed, that fuch reasons as I have stated would have operated fo powerfully as to obviate any oppofition whatever. On thofe grounds, therefore, it was proposed to lay before his Majesty a detailed dispatch, which we thought it expedient to transmit te the lord lieutenant, ftating the nature of the measure we had in contemplation to propofe to parliament, in order that it should be communicated to the Catholics. This dispatch was fent to his Majesty by a cabinet minister, and his Majefty returned it with an expreffion of repugnance to the measure. But, upon receiving this intelligence, ministers drew up a refpectful reprefentation, containing all the reafons which operated in their minds to recommend the conceffion propofed, and this reprefentation was forwarded to his majefty, who after fome deliberation was graciously pleased to communicate his confent to the measure. Under this authority the original difpatch was fent to the Duke of Bedford, and upon receipt of it in Dublin, a meeting took place between the lord chancellor, Mr. Eliot, his grace's fecretary, and fome diftinguifhed members of the Catholic body; to whom Mr. Eliot, in addition, stated, that this bill was not propofed to them as an inducement to any compromife of their claims for total emancipation, but offered to them as an act of justice. When the substance of the difpatch was itated to these gentlemen, one of them, Mr. O'Connor, asked Mr. Eliot, whether it was meant by the propofed meafure that all offices, including thofe on the ftaff, thould be acceffible to Catholics? To this Mr Eliot replied, that the dispatch mentioned all offices whatever; but yet having fome doubt, he could not give a decided anfwer upon the point referred to in the question. This question having been communicated to minifters, by Mr. Eliot, a fecond dispatch was drawn up, removing Mr. Eliot's doubt, and authorifing him to give a decided anfwer to Mr. O'Connor's question. This fecond difpatch was laid before his Majefty, and his Majefty was pleased to return it without any objection or comment whatever. It was therefore immediately forwarded to Ireland. However, upon the point fome differences of opinion did arife. Doubts were entertained, it is but fair to fay, by fome members of the cabinet, as to the ex tent of this measure. I ftate the facts as they occurred. My object is to ftate the cafe literally as it arofe. The cabinet minifters I have alluded to, declared that they were not, in the first inftance, aware of the full extent of the measure, and to that extent they strongly expreffed their objection; but the difpatch had been previously tranfmitted to the Duke of Bedford. It has been stated by fome perfons who have animadverted upon this tranfaction; that Minifters were not warranted in bringing forward a public measure without previously obtaining the confent of his Majesty. But this extravagant propofition fcarcely deferves ferious notice. According to any rational publication on the fubject, the duty of a Minifter appears to be two fold. He may act in a double capacity upon different occafions-namely, as a Minifter, and as an individual member of parliament. There was no Minifter who had not afted fo occafionally. If indeed it were Culpable to purfue the course, fome extravagant writers now maintain, Mr. Pitt's conduct upon the Slave Trade and Parliamentary Reform, would have been highly cenfurable -for that diftinguished statefman, in both thefe inftances, brought forward the propofitions as an individual member of parliament. -The constitutional distinction which, in concurrence with my colleagues, I take between the duty of a Minifter in the one cafe and the other, is this-that when a Minifter brings forward any motion as a measure of government which has undergone any difcuffion in the Cabinet, he violates his duty, unless fuch measure fhall have received the fanction of that authority. I should of courfe feel myfelf very culpable, if I attempted to bring for ward any measure in Parliament as a minifterial measure, unless I had previously fbmitted that measure to the confideration of the King, and obtained his Majesty's confent to its adoption. It was therefore I laid before his Majesty all the particulars with regard to the meafure refpecting the Catholics, and waited to obtain his Majefty's approbation before I attempted to submit the confideration of that meafure to this House. The fecond difpach which I have stated to have been fent to the Duke of Bedford on the 12th of February was drawn up by me, in confequence of the indifpofition of Lord Spencer; and in this it will be recollected Mr. Eliot was authorized to give a decided answer to Mr. O'Connor. That dispatch I fent to Windfor on Monday for his Majesty's approbation, and on Tuesday following it was returned without any objection or comment whatever, as I have already stated. But what ferved more diftinctly to imprefs my mind with an opinion of his Majefty's complete acquiefcence in the meafure is this, that I had the honour of feeing him on the Thurfday following, and he expreffed not even a hint of any objection to it. I immediately forwarded the difpatch I had written to the Duke of Bedford, and on the following day ftated in this Houfe my intention to propose a clause in the Mutiny Bill, to answer the purpose which I had understood his Majefty to have fanctioned. After fome further confideration however, it was fuggefted that in point of form it would not be correct to ingraft fuch a claufe on the Mutiny Bill. In confequence of this fuggeftion it was determined to make the claufe the fubject of a separate bill. Ол the Wednesday following the adoption of this determination, after the bill was brought in and read a first time, I attended at St. James's, and after fome converfation with his Majesty about my own office, his Majefty asked me what was the bufinefs in the Houfe that evening? I answered, among other things, a motion for the fecond reading of this bill, which had been made a feparate bill, mentioning the confiderations I have ftated to the Houfe. His Majesty afked, whether the bill was the fame as the act of the Irish Parliament? I ftated the difference to be what I communicated to his Majefty fome days before in the difpatch addrefled to the Duke of Bedford, and repeated the reafons which appeared to me to juftify that difference; and here I muft acknowledge that his Majefty did express his difapprobation of the measure. Gentlemen may rely that 1 fhall frankly ftate all the facts; but although his Majesty did not exprefs his difapprobation, ftill I did not conceive the confent withdrawn he had originally given to the introduction of this measure, and I was very naturally the lefs inclined to think fo from this circumftance, that Lord Grenville had an audience of his Majesty after I left him, and his Majesty mentioned not one word upon the fubject to my noble friend.-Upon the following day alfo I faw his Majesty, but heard nothing further of his objection, nor did for the whole of the week, although I had frequent opportunities of hearing from, and fome converfations with the king. In confequence of an unfortunate event which occurred in my family, I was for fome days abfent from bufinefs and this Houfe, and that abfence produced a poftponement of the order for the fecond reading of this bill. During this period I had not feen his Majesty, but I understood that he had communicated to Lord Grenville his decided objection to the meafure referred to, and that his Majefty conceived the extent of it to be far beyond that to which he had originally given his affent. From that circumftance I was led to fufpect that I had misunderstood his Majesty; l'accordingly demanded an audience, in order to ufe my endeavours for the purpose of satistying his Majesty's mind upon the tubject, but my endeavours had not the effect of removing his Majesty's objections, and I had the regret to find that I had misunderstood his Majesty, or that he had completely misunderstood me. However, from an anxious wish to avoid giving any pain to his Majesty's feelings, I endeavoured, in concert with my colleagues, fo to to modify the bill as to reconcile it to his Majefty's wishes. But after a good deal of deli. beration we found that it could not be modifie ed as to obviate his objections, without deftroying the vital effence of the measure without doing away that which would be fatisfactory to the Catholics, or likely to produce any of the important confequences which we had in view upon its original introduction; we therefore propofed to abandon it altoge ther, in deference to the feelings of his Majesty. Any man who has a juft mind cannot but beware that it must have been a painful facrifice of perfonal feelings to public duty. But I trust that wherever that kind of facrifice becomes neceflary for fuch an object, no man will be found more willing to fubmit to it than I fhall. Having agreed to give up this bill altogether, we did at the fame time feel it neceflary, for the vindication of our character, to infert a minute in the proceedings of the Cabinet, ftating the grounds upon which we were induced to give up the measure-that we would not prefs any proceeding which might appear to be hostile to his Majesty's feelings, but that from the opinions and principles we had on many occafions expreffed in Parliament, and from a juft folicitude for the intereft of this Empire, we must confiftently referve to our felves the right of submitting at all times for his decifion, fuch measures as we might deem advifable and expedient for the benefit of lieJand. With regard to the propriety of inferting this minute, I would appeal to any man of right feeling, whether in justice to the King and to ourfelves, we could abstain from recording the ground upon which we acted. One courfe only remained for myfelt and my colleagues in the fituation in which we stood, after w th drawing a measure of great puolic moment, through refpect for the feelings of the King, that is, to infert the minute referred to, thus recording the ground upon which we had fo acted, and expreffing our intentions for the future. Looking to our own reputation looking to the maintenance of our confiftency looking to the probable introduction of a petition from the Catholics, could we, with any fenfe we owed to ourselves, he fitate to record that which meant only to express a refervation of that right, which, if we had confented to abandon, we must have rendered ourfelves unworthy the esteem even of ourselves? To this minute I would refer for the vindication of our view and conduét both with regard to our Sovereign and our Country, and particularly against the charge advanced against us, which can only be fupported by an invidioully garbled extract grom that very minute. But fuppofing we had omitted altogether to infert this minute, with which fome perfons affect to find fault, how should we stand in a certain event? Let us take it the other way that I had come down to this Houle and withdrawn this Bill, without making any ftatement whatever of the grounds npon which I was induced to adopt fuch a proceeding and that afterwards, upon the introduction of the Catholic Petition, my colleagues and I should declare our opinion in favour of it without any previous intimation of our intention to the King-What would his Majesty be dif pofed to think of us, and what fort of charge would this Houfe be warranted in making against us? I fay, therefore, nothing can more ftrongly manifeft our deference for the King's opinion, and our difpofition to act with franknefs and candour towards his Majefty, than this precife minute-which only means to referve to ourselves the right which belongs to any individual member of parliament, of bringing forward any measure which he may think neceflary for the public intereft. But what will the Houfe think of a propofition being diftinctly made to us tantamount to an abfolute furrender of that right? Not contented with the facrifice which I have so often men. tioned to the feelings of the King, it was actually propofed to us, not only that we should withdraw the latter part of the minute, but alfo, fubftitute in its place a written obligation of a directly oppofite nature, pledging ourfelves never to bring forward again the mea fure we had abandoned; nay more, never to propofe any thing connected with the Catholic Question. Much as this proposition may astonish the Houfe, I feel fully fatisfied from the opportu nity which my official communication has afforded me of judging of the nature of his opinions, that he is actuated by the pureft motives. Of the benevolent intentions of his Majesty for the interefts of his people in this tranfaction, fo far as he is perfonally concerned, I entertain not the flightest doubt, but of his advisers I can fay nothing. But I will ap peal to this House and the country whether fuch an obligation could be patiently difcuffed, much less subscribed, by any man who ever entertained a correct notion of public duty, or who was unfutceptiole of a feeling worthy of a respectable public station. Need I add that this propofition was fuch as my colleagues and myself found it utterly impoffible to af fent to; and having refpectully communicated our diffent from it to the King, we on the next day received an intimation from his Majesty that he must look out for other Minifters. 1 hele Minifters he has accordingly fucceeded in finding, and on Wednesday laft my colleagues and I delivered up the feals of office to his Majesty. 1 trust that, in the statement I have made, I have established a fufficient guard against any further mifreprefentation. I have thewn, I hope to the latisfaction of the House, these three important facts—18, That the Bill referred to was not proposed in this House until his Majefty was fully apprised of it-dly, That whatever misunderstanding might late arifen, the fault was not with us, as his Majefty was afforded aniple opportunity, in the documents |