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be retained as affording more effectual and more economical protection. The expenses of enlisting the dragoons and of purchasing the horses, had already been incurred. But if the select committee were satisfied that the employment of any horsemen was unnecessary, and a majority should concur with them, then Mr. D. said he should rejoice at the prospect of a saving of expense in this particular instance.

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cessary. He acknowledged he was not very well acquainted with that frontier, but he could see no good and substantial reason why, in time of peace, garrisons would not answer the purpose there as well as on the Northwestern frontier. If it were said the garrisons were so far apart as not to be a sufficient defence, he believed more infantry might be spared for that quarter, which would be vastly cheaper, and quite as useful as horse. He supposed these troops were wanted to prevent the people of Georgia from going into the Indian Terboundary of Georgia, and that horse were considered more effectual for this purpose; but he could not see what effect a small body of horse could have, more than infantry. If the white people, or Indians, could not be kept in obedience, without being watched from hour to hour, they might as well make a chain of defence from one end of the frontier to the other; but he saw no reason to induce him to keep up such a patrol on that frontier, any more than upon others. If any gentleman could show the necessity of these troops in time of peace, he should be for negativing the report; but, until that was shown, he should remain of the opinion that it would be of no use to retain the cavalry.

Mr. S. SMITH said, he did not know that the question relative to repealing of so much of the act as related to dragoons, was under considera-ritory, and the Indians from coming within the tion, or he should have thought it necessary, without being called upon, to have given the information inquired for; but he thought the question had been upon adding the word "Resolved" to the first article of the report. The select committee, in taking the subject of light dragoons into consideration, was of opinion, that there was no immediate necessity for horse on the Northwestern frontier; for, as all the supplies would now be transported by water, there would be no necessity for light dragoons to conduct them. They also took into consideration the Southern frontier, and were of opinion that no horse were necessary there, and therefore, that the two troops of horse might be dispensed with.

This, he said, was the ground of the report: but, since the report was made, he had had some conversation with the Secretary of War, who had politely shown him the correspondence which had taken place between him and the Governor of Georgia, by which it appeared that it had been necessary to keep up one or two troops of militia horse on that frontier: and he found that the Secretary of War, discovering that two companies of horse were not necessary on the Northwestern frontier, had sent one company, and intended sending the other, to the frontiers of Georgia, believing that Continental troops would be more useful than Militia, and also prevent the harassing too much the yeomanry of that country by that service.

He thought it necessary thus far to state the opinion of the Secretary of War. The estimate of the expense of the two companies of Militia, he found to be 26,505 dollars, whilst that of the regulars was only 22,212, making an equal number of militia horse more expensive than the Continental cavalry, by nearly 4,300 dollars. The Secretary of War seemed to think it was necessary either to keep up the military horse, or send cavalry to that frontier. The gentleman from Georgia would, perhaps, be able to say which would be the most pleasing or necessary.

These two companies of horse, it was true, Mr. S. said, cost as much as a regiment of infantry; and if the frontier was to be protected, it became a question whether a regiment of infantry would not be more effectual than two troops of horse.

Mr. DEARBORN said, if it should appear to the satisfaction of the Committee that two companies of horse were necessary on the frontiers of Georgia, no member would hesitate about retaining the two companies already in the establishment; but he was not convinced that any horse was ne

Mr. VENABLE wished to know whether the purchase of horses was stated in the estimate ? for he had remarked that there had been almost continually an annual purchase of horses.

The Clerk read from the estimate that nine thousand four hundred and fifty dollars were charged for the purchase of sixty-two horses, from which a deduction of five thousand seven hundred and ninety-two dollars was made for the value of the horses at the end of the year.

Mr. S. SMITH said the whole charges of two companies of dragoons was fifty-two thousand dollars a year.

Mr. BALDWIN said, it had been suggested the last session, when the subject was under discussion, (and, he was of that opinion,) that the cavalry was unnecessary; and it would be recollected that the House first determined upon having only one company, but afterwards they resolved upon two. From the intercourse which had taken place between the Secretary of War and the Governor of Georgia, it appeared that horse were preferred to infantry for guarding that frontier; and as only a few months had elapsed since the law was passed, he did not think it necessary now to make any alteration in it; for if they went again into the subject, they should probably come to the same thing again. In one part of the frontier, it appeared that cavalry was the best for defence; in another, infantry. He had therefore reconciled his mind to the measure, and saw no reason for the proposed repeal.

Mr. DAYTON rose to make reply to the member from Massachusetts. That gentleman had undertaken to instruct him in his duty, and seemed to have forgotten or neglected his own. Without advocating absolutely the retention in service of the two companies of cavalry, he had exercised a privilege which he enjoyed, in common with

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Military Establishment.

[JANUARY, 1797.

had swelled the expenditures under the general head of the defensive protection of the frontiers about fifty-two thousand dollars.

other members, to ask from the select committee whose peculiar duty it had been, and who had a better opportunity to procure it, some information as to the usefulness of the cavalry, and some ex- It was of little consequence to the people of the planation as to the effect of adopting this part of United States, under which head of expenditure their report. He was desirous of having it un- the expenses were incurred, whether that of "Miderstood before the vote was taken whether the litary Establishment," or "defensive protection cavalry were to be disbanded as too expensive, of the frontiers" if no saving was produced by unprofitable, and unnecessary, or whether they the transposition. That there had been no ecowere to be discharged in order to make way for nomy in the former instance of reduction, but, on the employment of an equal or greater number of the contrary, additional expenses, was clear, and militia horse? Which ever of those two objects they ought now to consider the question as dehad been the favorite one of the Committee, did not ciding whether horse of any description were appear from the question under consideration, necessary; and if the reform and disbandment of nor from any part of the report. Yet it was cer- those in service should be determined upon, they tainly important that there should be a perfect ought to carry the same determination into the understanding as to the tendency of the measure appropriation bill, and reduce the charges under before it was adopted. This inquiry would not the head of the defensive protection of the fronbe deemed fruitless or improper by those who re-tiers in the same proportion. If they acted othercollected the arguments which were urged and wise, they would be deceiving themselves, or raactually prevailed in a former session in favor of ther they would be deceiving their constituents, a reduction of that corps from four to two troops. by holding up to them an appearance of saving They were then told, and Mr. DAYTON owned under one head of expenditure, and as certainly, that he himself believed it, that by that reduction though somewhat more disguisingly, squandering they would save to the United States the expense away the same or a greater sum, and for the same of paying, subsisting, and equipping two troops purpose, under another head, and that more geof horse. Could it be said that the event had neral, and less capable of being checked. corresponded with their expectations, and that Mr. NICHOLAS did not think the information they had realized the saving which had been con- before them was complete. He thought it extemplated? On the contrary, he asked, if it was traordinary that the gentleman from Georgia not true that the two troops of militia horse had should have thought the cavalry unnecessary six been kept up to supply the deficiency, at an ex-months ago, when it was said they were wanted pense to the public of about eight thousand dollars more than would have been incurred if the reduction had not taken place. He had certain information that two militia troops had been continued in the pay and service of the United States from that time to this, and that even a third had been called out and employed a part of the time. It had been proved to the conviction of every member, by an estimate founded on actual expenditures, that a troop of militia would exceed in expense that of regular cavalry about four thousand three hundred dollars per year. Another source of extraordinary expense ought also to be taken into the calculation. The militia generally are called into service under circumstances that rendered it inconvenient to absent themselves long from their families, and therefore the real claims and pretexts they could set up for furloughs, and the facility with which they could procure them from officers who were not in habits of severe discipline, made it necessary to have three companies upon the musters, and of course in pay, in order to insure the actual service of two only. These inconveniences had already been experienced to their cost, and ought to operate as a lesson of caution in future. Congress had reduced on a former occasion their squadron of horse from four troops to two, yet two troops of militia had been kept up to supply their place at a greater expense. They had, it was true, in consequence of the reduction, reduced the appropriation for the Military Establishment about forty-four thousand dollars; but it was equally true that the militia that were substituted

on the Northwestern frontier, and now, when they were found to be unnecessary there, that he should think them necessary in another place. It was true that a regulation had been made at that time in the Military Establishment, but it was not less true that they had been deceived with respect to what was necessary. He wanted to know, not only whether cavalry was less expensive than militia horse, but whether either were necessary, and what they were to do? He had no information on the subject. They had been told that two or three Governors of Georgia had recommended cavalry to be sent there; but in the course of that time, they had been at war with the Creek Indians, and were now at peace.

It appeared to him as if they were never to reduce their expenses: whether we were at peace or war, no alteration was made in our establishments; for, if men were not wanted in one situation, they were sent to another, though no real necessity existed for them. He hoped they should receive further information on the subject, if there was any need of retaining the cavalry proposed to be dispensed with.

Mr. DEARBORN said, that he expected the gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. DAYTON] instead of showing that cavalry would be cheaper than militia horse, would have shown that either one or the other was necessary; because, if any were necessary, he had allowed that regulars were preferable to militia; but instead of that, he had told them that two or three Governors had said that two or three companies of horse were necessary. He had no doubt the Governor of Georgia might

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say they were necessary now; he could not say how disinterested he was. He had no doubt but the people of the district of Maine, and in other situations, would have no objections to have two companies of horse kept up there at the public expense. How far this kind of evidence ought to have weight, the House would determine. For his part, except these horse could be shown to be necessary, from the situation of the country, inde pendent of the opinion of any Governor, he should be for agreeing to the report before them; for, if these troops were to be sent there without necessity, in two or three years they would be told they had no occasion for them; but, so long as they agree to pay these horse, to do he did not know what, he did not expect to hear any objection from that quarter. Being at perfect peace on the Northwestern frontier, a large number of infantry may be spared from that quarter for the defence of the Georgia frontier, if necessary; but, except he heard stronger reasons for the measure than he had yet heard, he should oppose the retaining of horse in our establishment."

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Mr. S. SMITH said, the information which the gentleman last up wished for, had not been unattended to by the select committee; but the new organization of the Army from legions to regiments, which had lately taken place, and the death of General Wayne, had prevented regular information on the subject from being obtained from the Secretary of War. Neither the number of men, nor their station could be accurately ascertained; nor was this essential, because where the troops are now, is not where they will shortly be. After the necessary garrisons were furnished, he believed there would remain out of the four regiments, six or eight companies.

If the Committee rose, Mr. SMITH believed no more information could be had on the subject.

It was asked, whether cavalry was necessary for the defence of the Southern frontier? The Secretary of War had said they were; and if the present cavalry were not retained, he supposed militia horse would be employed, the expense of which it had been seen would be greater than that of regulars.

Mr. MILLEDGE said, it was well known that Mr. HARTLEY said, he was upon the select comthey had an extensive frontier of betwixt two hun-mittee, and very reluctantly agreed to this part dred and three hundred miles, and that the Gover- of the report. The expense of the horse, it was nors of Georgia had always been of opinion that true, was a very important consideration. Upon horse were the best defence for that frontier; that inquiry, it was found that dragoons were not nethey bordered on a numerous savage tribe of ten cessary on the Northwestern frontier; but that thousand or twelve thousand men ; and who, in a might not be the case in the Southern. The peostate of peace, were always committing depreda- ple of Georgia, it seemed, considered dragoons as tions upon them, so that it required troops to be the most proper defence, and he thought they constantly passing backward and forward to keep might be indulged with so small a number as two them in order. Dragoons, he said, had been con- troops of horse, since it would be less expensive stantly employed for that purpose, and it had been than employing the militia. allowed that the expense of militia horse was greater than that of regulars; he hoped, therefore, the law would remain as at present, and that horse would be sent to defend that frontier.

Mr. WILLIAMS observed that, when the bill passed last session, it was said that these horse would be wanted to convey information from one garrison to another on the Northwestern frontier. This necessity no longer existed; and, of course, these troops may be dispensed with: but, it was said, they were wanted on the frontiers of Georgia, because the frontier was betwixt two hundred and three hundred miles in extent. But was this frontier more exposed to danger than the Northwestern frontier? He believed not. It was time, he said, that they endeavored to reduce the expenses of Government, wherever they would admit of it, and he believed this object of expense might well be spared.

During the last session, Mr. W. said, that they had laid before them the number of troops in service, and he expected to have had a similar account this session, not only of the troops in actual pay, but where stationed; for, though he had the highest opinion of the officers of their departments, he wished to form his own opinion on every subject upon which he was called upon to vote.

When this subject should have been fully discussed, he should wish the Committee to rise, for the purpose of obtaining further information on the subject.

Mr. H. said, from a consideration of doing away the cavalry, it had been recommended to add eight men to each company of infantry; but, from the present state of things, he should think it his duty to oppose the repeal of that part of the act.

Mr. HOLLAND said, when this subject was formerly before them, a part of the House wished to have dispensed with the dragoons; but it was said they would be necessary for conveying information, &c. It now appeared, however, that they were not necessary, and that the minority on that occasion were right. But now, it was said, they were necessary for the protection of the frontiers of Georgia. He saw no reason for this, nor did he think that country was in greater danger from the Indians than the frontiers in other parts of the Union; indeed, it had somewhat the advantage of other parts, by the openness of the country.

It was the opinion of the Governor of Georgia, it seemed, that horse were necessary, and that cavalry would be cheaper and better than militia horse; but the necessity did not appear, and until it did, that House was not to be governed by the opinion of one or two gentlemen. It was necessary they should judge for themselves.

Mr. RUTHERFORD said this was a matter of moment. Dragoons were expensive, and they had no business with them. To keep up a battle array, in time of peace, was inconvenient. When they were desirous of decreasing their expenses, this

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Military Establishment.

[JANUARY, 1797.

respect to the Creeks. As to the protection of the frontiers, no person desired more than him, to afford them protection, but he had no idea that they should spend for that purpose whatever they were called upon for.

was an object of importance. With respect to the frontier, he said, he looked to the frontier of every part of the Union with as much feeling as any man. He knew the difficulties experienced on all frontiers, he had long been acquainted with them; but when he considered that two compaThe frontiers of the United States, he said, had nies of dragoons were called for to protect a fron- always been exposed to depredations from the tier of three hundred miles, they were not compe- Indians; but he considered those depredations as tent to the business. If an emergency should take arising from the peculiar situation of the frontier place, and those savages-those uninformed crea- inhabitants, and it was only when there was dantures should make war upon the frontier inhabit-ger of an open war, that it was necessary for Goants, the Governor would, of course, call forth a vernment to interfere; till then, the exertions of certain number of the people-the militia-accord- the inhabitants themselves were sufficient. If they ing to the emergency; and this appeared to him a recurred to the year 1792, it would be found that the more rational defence than sending of two compa- protection of the frontiers cost ninety-four thounies of dragoons to watch their motions. Rea- sand dollars; in 1791, fifty-two thousand dollars, son, he said, was outraged by the idea. It would when the danger was the greatest. He, thereplease him to keep up a large force, as we had fore, thought there was nothing more necessary many martial men of merit; but it would be de- than the will of the United States to reduce the ceiving of them, to give them a momentary em- present establishment; but if the Legislature did ployment, when they could engage their time bet-not make the proper reductions, by agreeing to ter; as, when the situation of the country wanted them, they would be ready to come forward; but, in the mean time, they would do well to find some useful occupation.

Mr. GALLATIN said, whether they considered the increase of expense which had taken place in every branch of the Military Establishment, or whether they compared our present situation with the danger which threatened us when this establishment was fixed, or the present situation of our finances, they must approve of the report before them, as it related to a reduction of the Military Establishment. It must be remembered, he said, that this establishment was fixed in March, 1792, immediately after the defeat of General St. Clair. At that time the dragoons were added. and three additional troops of infantry; and, in order to show that the addition was made only for the emergency, there was a provision in the act to this effect: "Provided, that the same three troops shall be disbanded as soon as peace shall take place with the Indian tribes."

Last year, he said, it was thought that circumstances being changed, peace being established, it was necessary and proper to reduce the infantry and abolish the cavalry, but it was said they were wanted to take possession of the posts, &c. And now, when all those purposes were completed, the cavalry were wanted for the frontiers of Georgia; and, if that frontier were completely secured, he supposed some other reason would be found for retaining these troops in service.

If they were to indulge every State, Mr. G. said, which chose to make a requisition for troops, without inquiry, there might be no end of the expense. They might be called upon by Tennessee, Kentucky, and the Northwestern frontier, for regular troops, or for the support of militia, to an extent not to be calculated.

Mr. G. thought it was their duty to reduce the Army to the footing upon which it stood in 1792. He thought nothing had taken place to make it necessary to extend the establishment beyond that time; the possession of new posts, and our Treaty with Spain, having also given us security with

the present report, the expense would be incurred. He hoped the report would be agreed to, and that they should go still further in lowering the establishment.

Mr. S. SMITH said, the select committee were directed to report what alterations were necessary in the act; not to inquire with respect to regulations in the Military Department; not to report what was cheapest. From the report this conclusion would be drawn, that no cavalry was necessary, as that part of the act was recommended to be repealed. He imagined the gentleman from New Jersey would have drawn that conclusion, and spared his censure of the committee.

The question was put and carried—there being 64 in favor of it.

Mr. WILLIAMS said, we were either in a state of peace or of war; if we were in a state of peace, he did not see any reason why the establishment should be larger than in 1792. He therefore moved to add, after the word "repealed": "and that the four regiments of infantry be reduced to two." If at any time we should be disturbed on our frontiers, he considered that there was virtue enough in the yeomanry of the country to take care of the frontiers. Where our troops were, he said, he could not tell. It was supposed we had three thousand men, but they had no return to know what number they had. To keep up four regiments, when only two were necessary, was an expense thrown away. He should have wished to have seen an estimate; but, as none had been made, he wished the four regiments to be reduced to two.

Mr. S. SMITH hoped the motion would not prevail. He had not before him the number of troops or a calculation of what were necessary, but it appeared to him that the number of troops was not greater than would be necessary for the different posts. It would be recollected that there was a considerable scope of country from Tennessee to the Mississippi, not before in the possession of the United States. At this moment, he believed, it would be unsafe to lessen the number of troops. Indeed, he was surprised to hear the motion, as

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it was the first time he had heard such a thing intimated as a reduction of the infantry, and he was unprepared to meet the attack.

[H. of R.

to keep the posts occupied with military, but, in time of peace, there was no necessity for anything

further.

concluded a peace with those Indians only last Fall which had cost them a great deal of money. His house, he said, was within thirty miles of the Mr. WILLIAMS said, if the gentleman was not place where the Treaty with the Indians was prepared, he would move that the Committee made, and no post was kept up between them, so rise. If there was occasion, he said, he should that they were always open to incursions from always be willing to keep up a sufficient number them; but they trusted in the virtue of their miof troops; but if the present number was unne-litia, the bulwark of the nation. It was necessary cessary, he wished to reduce them, as he was unwilling to do anything which would lead one part of society to live upon the industry of another. Mr. MURRAY said he was but little acquainted with military affairs, but it appeared to him natural and proper that a communication should have been had from the proper department, before a motion like the present had been made. It was true, they had the power of raising armies; but the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES had the direction of them when raised; and he thought it was very natural for them to have some reference to the Executive or War Department, and to have received such an official statement from thence

as would have saved much inquiry and loose

information.

tive, or the Secretary of War, however highly he With respect to any calculation of the Executhought of them, he should wish to depend on his own opinion. The safety of the nation, he said, was committed to him in part, as well as to them; and he was accountable to his constituents for every farthing of public money which he consented should be spent.

neither in a state of peace nor war, was true, but The gentleman's observation, that we were it was also true that whenever any nation was disposed to break peace with us, we are ready to meet them with the yeomanry of the nation. It was our duty, he said, in time of peace, to retrench our expenses as much as possible, so that we may be the better prepared if an emergency should at any time arise.

The Chairman informed the House that the

question was for the Committee to rise.

There was another point of view in which the gentleman from New York [Mr. WILLIAMS] had placed the subject. He had said, we were either in a state of war or of peace. In making this assertion, the gentleman seemed to have an eye to Europeon countries. There the language might be properly used; but, said he, we live in a coun-mittee should rise? No more information could try in which we cannot say it is either war or peace. There was a sort of intermediate state; and until that unhappy race of men who live in an uncivilized state, in our country, be extinguished, that will always be the case: a state which requires vigilance, even an armed vigilance, to guard against depredations. The frontiers, he said, must have stations adapted to their situations. He regretted, therefore, that the two troops of horse were ordered to be struck out. It was strange, he said, that at a moment that our number of forts was increased, our Military Establish-security of the country; and would the gentle

ment should be reduced.

If the motives of gentlemen were to be judged of, those who came from parts of the Union where there was no danger from Indians, were opposing measures intended to secure their fellow-citizens who were exposed to danger. In the Atlantic States, he said, we had no cause for alarm; but it was from the principle of wishing to defend every part of the Union that he should rather vote for an increase than a decrease of the Military Establishment.

He hoped gentlemen would turn their attention to that state which was neither a state of peace nor of war; for such must be the situation of frontier inhabitants, since the Indian tribes are not capable of preserving a lasting peace. He hoped the gentleman would retract his motion.

Mr. WILLIAMS said, if the gentlemen last up had known from whence he came, and was at all acquainted with the geography of the country, he must have known that he lived in the very neighborhood of the Indians. The State of New York

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Mr. S. SMITH asked for what purpose the Combe got than they had at present. He was inclined to hope, that when the gentleman from New York considered the subject, he would vote against his own motion. This, he said, was not unfrequently the case. Long speeches were often made in favor of a measure by a member, who afterwards voted against the doctrine which he advocated. The but he believed the troops would be wanted for gentleman talked of the yeomanry of the country, the posts, which were to be taken possession of, and they must take possession of them for the

man's two regiments, the nominal number of which was one thousand men, but which was seldom more than eight hundred and fifty, be sufficient for all the posts? He believed not. Let us, said he, proceed with the business; let us determine what the Military Establishment shall be, and not postpone the business from day to day.

Mr. HARTLEY wished the gentleman from Massachusetts, [Mr. DEARBORN,] who was possessed of information on the subject, would state it to the Committee. Upon the best information he could get, he was certain the present establishment would not be too large. How the gentleman from New York came to make the present motion, without further information, he was at a loss to know. They had heretofore charged another House with sacrificing the interests of the country, but he thought they should not fail to do so, if they did not vote a sufficient number of troops to occupy the posts we had lately got possession of. Instead of four regiments being too much, the select committee had recommended

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