SENATOR FROM OKLAHOMA TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 1975 U.S. SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS, COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:13 p.m., in room S-148, the Capitol, Hon. Claiborne Pell (subcommittee chairman), presiding. Present: Senators Pell, Robert C. Byrd, and Griffin. Staff present: James H. Duffy, chief counsel, and James F. Schoener, minority counsel. Senator PELL. The Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections will come to order to consider two items. First, the question of extending the authorization for the Federal Election Commission, and, second, the question of the Oklahoma election. [The portion of the subcommittee meeting relating to extending the authorization for the Federal Election Commission was not printed in this publication.] Senator PELL. The next item on the agenda, and the last item, is the question of the Oklahoma election. And by way of background, I know we are all recently familiar with it and with the problem. And, basically, the question is whether the machines set by the experts were by intent or accident. This has been through the court system in Oklahoma, which held with Senator Bellmon. Congressman Edmondson, on the other hand, feels that the courts were not correct, and he has appealed to the Senate and would like very much to have an investigator, or a pair of investigators go out. My own belief is that Senator GRIFFIN. Do you want this on the record? Senator PELL. Maybe not. All right. Off the record. [Discussion off the record.] Senator PELL. Do you want to be on or off the record? One of the things that has been called to my attention is that there is a complete transcript of this whole matter concerning this matter and, as I understand it, under oath. And I wonder if we have abstracted that, if we know what is in there. Have we found out what else we need to investigate? Senator PELL. Mr. Edmondson called me on the telephone this morning, and he heard we were having this meeting. And he said there was an item that he would like to see included from a report from a Blue Ribbon Commission that was not included in that transcript. And he also wanted the Senate's own investigators talking with the people who are there. But I think Jim Duffy can shed some light. Mr. DUFFY. With respect to Senator Griffin's question about a transcript, it is true Senator Bellmon temporarily loaned to the Senate a huge 21⁄2 inch transcript that was taken before the superior court, and Senator Bellmon has subsequently recalled that for use in his office. Now. I do not know this of my own knowledge, but Mr. Edmondson and his counsel, Morris Levin, told me that the transcript does not answer the question as to why these election officials in Tulsa County did not comply with State law, No. 1, in programing the voting machines in Tulsa so as to provide for straight party lever when there are only two party candidates on the ticket-on the ballot and, second, why the candidates for national office, including Senators Bellmon and Edmondson, were placed in column 6 of the ballot rather than column 3. He says that the transcript does not address itself to that. Moreover, he claims that he has gathered some material from various experts who can show something to the effect that had the straight party lever been on the machine. Democrats who are more accustomed. he says, to casting straight party votes might have benefitted. And the final point is that while the machines were not programed so as to have a straight party vote capability, the instructions for casting a straight party vote were allegedly still left on the machine. Now, these are the things he says he would like to have the committee investigators go to in Tulsa County to talk with these election officials of the county and find out, if possible, why the law was not complied with. I know the Supreme Court of Oklahoma did decide 9 to 0 against Mr. Edmondson despite the fact election officials had not officially met the law. And so I take Senator Griffin's letter very, very well. It is something that he has left up to the subcommittee to decide. I suppose this is a very delicate matter. I hesitate to express myself freely, certainly where Senator Bellmon says we are exhausted because of the New Hampshire contest. And I would not like personally to get involved in this type of contest. Senator PELL. I wonder if the thing would not come to a conclusion if you went out and looked around. Mr. DUFFY. If the subcommittee wishes to comply with Mr. Edmondson's request, we have two choices, either Judge Schoener and I go there and talk to the people who are involved, or we call them to Washington and hold hearings and give them their day in court here in the Senate Office Building, which would be considerably more expensive. Senator PELL. It would be more expensive, and also I do not think you would want to pull in the machines, ship the machines, or talk to the people there. I would think that Mr. DUFFY. I do think it is acknowledged by everybody that the machines were not, in fact, programed for a straight party vote capability in that many of the instructions were still there, telling the voter how to cast such a straight party vote. I think that is not in dispute at all. I question the criteria question, which is-did any of these elected officials in consortium deliberately agree not to program in that manner. There is no answer to it. There may never be an answer and, in all probability, they may not have done anything willfully at all. They may have been working with old machines. You see, there was an independent candidate running. Now, he was not a so-called party candidate, American Party, Democrat or Republican, but he was an independent candidate, and maybe the election officials felt he was the one who was the exception to the rule and, therefore, they would not program the machine. Senator GRIFFIN. Frankly, I had not talked with Mr. Bellmon lately. I do not know what his attitude is. I suppose he would like to have the subcommittee just not do anything but, obviously Senator PELL. No, no. He wants us to do something. He wants us to decide it. I think it really bothers him by not being decided. And why will you not speak to him on the phone and see what his feeling is at this point. because, as of 2 weeks ago, 10 days ago, he was perfectly amenable to this procedure. He may have changed. I do not know. Mr. DUFFY. If I may say so off the record Senator GRIFFIN. I think this should go on the record really. You know, I have talked with Senator Bellmon, and he has no objections to the majority and minority counsel going out and conducting that kind of an inquiry. As I indicated, there is concern about the last paragraph because it is so vague and indefinite nobody would know what that would include. So, particularly, if we can eliminate that Mr. DUFFY. May I ask a question about that, Senator? I did not, in my memorandum to the committee, mention all of the people whom Mr. Edmondson thought ought to be questioned, but one of those, for example, is a Donald G. Gallagher, who was a contract programer, not an officer or employee of the actual county board, but a programer who presumably had something to do with the programing of the machines. And I think that is one of the reasons why I was prompted to put the last paragraph in because he is not Senator PELL. Why do we not say interview those connected with it actually as a county election board concerned? Senator GRIFFIN. Would your questioning relate to that? Senator PELL. Regarding or concerning interviews connected with Mr. DUFFY. Is that subparagraph 1, interview members? Senator PELL. Yes; associated with the Tulsa County Election Board regarding the procedures of the programing of the machines and preparing ballots. Interview individuals associated with the Tulsa County Election Board, that would be members or contract employees, regarding the procedure for programing the machines and preparing ballots in view of the representatives of the State Election Board in Oklahoma City. Is that too narrow? Mr. DUFFY. No. I have no objection. Senator GRIFFIN. Let me make a suggestion on the top line on page 2 relative to Tulsa County noncompliance with State law. While that may be a conclusion, just strike out "nonrelative to Tulsa County compliance with the State law because, apparently, there is some argument." Mr. DUFFY. I understand. I have no objection to that. Senator GRIFFIN. One reason I was concerned a little bit about that, you know, when they would go out there, Judge Schoener has a lot of work to do for us between now. Senator PELL. So does Jim. Mr. DUFFY. That is right, because we are wearing two hats. We are majority and minority for the subcommittee, but we are certainly occupying almost that same role with the full committee now. And I would see that I would be derelict if I were to take off for Oklahoma this week. Senator PELL. Would you be willing, when you are through then, to going out there and then coming back to the Rules Committee? Suppose we leave it that we would approve it in terms of reference that when they feel they can go, they will go as soon as possible. They should not be in dereliction of their jobs here or their health. Mr. DUFFY. With the knowledge and consent of the subcommittee members Senator PELL. That would give you at least Mr. DUFFY. I would ask the subcommittee to approve it in this light. Senator GRIFFIN. I would think after the Senate acted on what we are going to do in the committee, after that, it should not take too long. Mr. SCHOENER. Count those ballots in the box and, of course, the Senate conceivably could order us to do some more things in New Hampshire, which I think we would then proceed on that. to Senator PELL. Could we leave it just open-ended with permission go when you feel you can go within the term of reference here? Mr. DUFFY. That would be just fine with us. Senator PELL. Just the two of you. And would you let Edmondson and Bellmon officially know that. Mr. DUFFY. We certainly will. Mr. SCHOENER. Senator, can I ask at the same time, should there be any requests from Mr. Coffey, who is Mr. Bellmon's attorney, that we will take care of it? Senator PELL. Absolutely. Thank you, gentlemen. [Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned.] HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION NINETY-FOURTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION ON THE PETITION AND COMPLAINT OF ED EDMONDSON CONCERNING THE CONDUCT OF THE ELECTION OF NOVEMBER 5, 1974, FOR UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA NOVEMBER 17 AND 18; AND DECEMBER 4, 1975 |