PROCEEDINGS IN PARLIAMENT, 1801-2.

H. OF COMMON S.
November 27, 1901.

The Houfe in a Committee on the bill to enable overfeers of the poor to relieve paupers in certain cafes, Sir W. Elferd admitted that many of the objectionable parts of the bill, in its original ftate, had been done away, in confequence of the fuggeftions of thote by whom it was originally oppofed.

Mr. Berkeley thought the whole of the poor laws ought to be revifed, and that it was a difgrace to Parliament to allow them fo long to exift in their prefent ftate. The laws for the relief of the poor, he faid, were, according to the remark of Barne, not unlike their garments, fo covered with patches, that their original form was almost completely concealed.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he was not difpofed to diffent from the Hon. Gentleman's propofition, that a revision of the whole fytem of the poor laws was highly defitable; but would it be wife or generous to poftpone the adoption of the biit before the Committee, which propofed to apply a falutary remedy to a preffing grievance, until that provifion fhould take place, which would require the utmoft attention and ability of Parliament, during a long feffion, to accomplish? With respect to the amount of the poor-rates, it was a miftake to fay that the whole of that contribution was appropriated folely to the ob jects for which thefe rates were originally levied. Owing to political circumftances, a confiderable portion of it was applied to the fupport of the widows and children of the militia, and to other public purpoles. He affured the Hon. Baronet on the oppofite fide, that he was ever willing to do juftice to the motives of those who might differ, with him in opinion; -he begged to be understood, that his remarks on a former evening were applied only to the propofition for delay. Without entering into a minute examination of the principles of this bill, it must be evident there never was a stronger appeal to the feelings and compaffion of Parliament. It propofed to enable overfeer to relieve the deferving poor, without affixing that badge, which, under fuch circumitances of general want as we had lately witneffed, all muft have worn who had not actually contributed to the poor rates; for, in one shape or other, all perfons of a different,defcription had, during that unhappy period, received fome relief. All who knew the feelings of humanity muft be aware of the effects that were likely to ante from a fente of humiliation-the degradat on of morals too generally followed. When mon felt themfelves deprefted and funk below their proper level, they fpeedily became GENT. MAC. January, 1802.

bad fubjects, bad neighbours, bad hufbands, and bad fathers; they abfented themselves from the House of God's worship, because they were ashamed to expofe their fallen tate-to exhibit the badge of poverty. It had therefore ever been the policy of wife Legiflatures, to cherish that independence of mind which was the fource and futtenance of every just and manly fentiment. It had been too often the fact, and it was melancholy to obferve, during the late fcarcity, that the industrious poor man, however hard he laboured, unable to purchate the apparel he was accuftomed to wear, fhrunk from his former connexious, and, declining his attendance at church, became liable to the ex reme of depravity. Would the Houfe then, he asked, refufe its cordial affent to a meafure which had any tendency to avert fuch deplorable confe quences?

Mr. Simeon deprecated any defign of altering the fyftem of the poor-laws, which, he faid, were grounded on a itatute fo finple and concife, that, among the difpared cafes which came within his knowledge, there were one hundred queftions of fact for one of law.

Mr. Ellifon agreed with the learned Gentleman, that the ftatute of Elizabeth was fimple; and yet upon that fimple bafis a fuperftructure of laws had been. railed, which, from their complication, and from the fubtlety of the profeffion to which that learned Gentleman belonged, had cot the country more money than any other fource of litigation whatever. He was therefore an advocate for the revifion of the poor-laws.

Mr. Shaw Lefevre denied that the poor were entitled to fuch praifes for their forbearance daring the laft fcarcity; for it was notorious that they even lived better than, and ina ftate of comparative affluence with, the minor payers of the poor tax, who proudly ftruggled, notwithstanding the Jearnefs of provifions, to contribute their

The Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed his hope, that the worthy Alderman would not carry it to the extent of repealing the whole of the act alluded to, as it contained certain falutary claufes and regulations for preventing the adulteration of bread,

Mr. Alderman Curtis replied, that it was certainly his with to move for a repeal of th: faid act in tots, as there were fufficient pre-existent laws to prevent the evils of adulteration. Leave was given.

The Irish Estimates were prefented, and the Houfe went into a Committee of Supply; when the Secretary at War, after obferving that the Houfe had already voted the principal army eftimates for the fervice of Ireland for three months, ending the 24th of March, moved for a fum of 46,6061. 35. Id. for 90 days extra forage for cavalry, which, after fome obfervations from Mr. Robfon, was agreed to; as were the following fums: for allowance to the Mufter Master General of Ireland for Clerks, &c. 1,7221. 158. 6d. ; for half-pay to the reduced officers, chaplains, &c. 5,1571. 18s. 20.; penfions to officers widows, 1,267). IIS. Itd.; the General Staff, 13,8681. gs. Id.; hofpital contingencies, 5,5551. 195. 2d.; Kilmainham Hofpital, 14,1481. 2d.; barrack department, $3,8921. 6s. 2d.

The fmall-beer allowance to the infantry was then voted at 25,1331. 175.9d.; and the marching allowance, at 23071. 138. 1d. The extraordinaries of the army of Great Britain, for 1802, at 600,000l. This laft experienced fome oppofition from Mr. Robfen, but was carried without a divifion.

On the motion of Mr. Cory, there were then voted, for the extraordinaries of the Army in Ireland, 300,000l.; and a large fum for a great variety of mifceHaneous local fervices of Ireland.

Mr. Robfon objected to voting fuch large fums for fervices entirely of a private nature; upon which Lord Glenbervie rofe to explain the Act of Union, as it referred to the refolutions now before the Committee.

The House then refumed, and refolved itfelf into a Committee of Ways and Means; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having moved a retolution for a fum fufficient to provide for the interest of the Exchequer bills for the four days during which it had been judged expedient to enlarge the time for finding thein, moved that a fem not exceeding five millions fhould be granted to his Majesty, by way of loan, to be raised by Exchequer bills; which, after fome obfervations from Mr. Robfen, was agreed to.

away the restraint upon the correspondence with France; which was read the first and fecond time.

Alderman Curtis brought in his bill to repeal the acts relative to the affize of bread.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, at the fame time that he fupported the bill, did not with it to be fuppofed that he thought any imputation could be attached on the bakers; but he was of the Alderman's op nion, that the latter fet the Magistrate as a fcreen between them and the people. He thought that when, in 1772, the House had left this fingle inftance remaining, whilst they were determined to put an end to monopoly in general, they had taken up an idea which the minds of men at prefent might be better prepared to fcrutinize and reject. The bill was read the first and fecond time, and committed.

After fome obfervations from Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Mr. Newbolt, Lord Glenbervie, and Mr. Ellifon, the report of the Poor Badge bill was received; and the bill, with fome few amendments, ordered to be engroffed.

December 2.

The Poor Badge bill was read the third time, and paffed.

The Houfe having refolved itself into a Committee on the Bread Affize bill, Mr. Alderman Curtis moved, that the claufe he had submitted to the House, on the previous difcuffion, relative to the weekly returns of the fale of flour, meal, grain, &c. do ftand part of the bill; which was agreed to. Mr. Curtis then followed up his motion with a variety of claufes, the most interesting of which were the following: a claufe for making allowance to the bakers of id. on every quarter of wheat, on account of the additional duty on falt.

Mr. Rofe thought this unneceffary, as the Magiftrates would have that power without it; that the Act which this bill meant to revive was defective; and thought it would leave the metropolis as much at the mercy of the flour-dealers as before. There were eight bushels to a fack of corn, and only fix to a fack of flour, out of which the miller kept two for his profit, independent of the offal, an advantage which mult be allowed to be enormous.

Alderman Cuntis agreed that the Act of the 28th George II. was imperfect; but, even fo, it would be much better than the two Acts this bill was meant to repeal. There would indeed be no remedy adequate to that of fair competition, which would take the fupply of the metropolis out of the hands of thofe worthy gentlemen, the nullers and the mealmen, whole opulence was fuch, and capitals fo great, as to place the bakers in a complete ttate of independence on them. There were in the metroLord Glenbervie brought in a bill to de polis, and within ten miles of the Royal

Mr. Hiley Addington brought in a bill for prohibiting the exportation, and encou raging the importation, of corn and other provifions.

December 1.

Exchange,

Exchange, to which thefe-regulations extended, 3000 bakers, of whom 2500 were dependent on thofe millers, on account of the credit which they received from them. This was an evil which ought to be checked.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer remarked, that the general laws gave bakers an allowance of 5s. per quarter on the price of wheat, and this claufe 4s. per fack on the price of flour. The price of flour evidently was greater than it ought to be, and the object of this measure went to lower it. Under the prefent fyftem, the baker's profit was fixed. It was to him a matter of indifference what the price of flour was; and in fome circumftances it was to his advantage that it should not be reduced. The Act to be revived, however, was by no means complete; and he hoped foon to fee the time when all thofe things would be left to find their own level, without Parlia mentary interference, and real justice to be done to the miller, the mealman, and

the baker.

Mr. Dent defended the characters of the corn-dealers and brokers, and wished the prefent measure, if adopted at all, to have a general operation; a principle which the Alderman coincided with.

The Speaker explained his view of what occafioned the differences in price between grain, flour and bread, into which he had an infight fome years ago, in his profeffional capacity, as counfel for the Albion Mills Society; who were then, of course, more plain with him than they might otherwife have been. The caute, he faid, was in a great measure to be found in grain, purchafed at the Corn Exchange of London, being neceffarily fent 40 or 00 miles off to be made into flour, and then brought back again. This, befides the wafte, produced a confiderable expence in carriage, and confequently affected the price of bread, which would be proportionally lower if the corn was ground in the vicinity of the metropolis. It was the ancient policy to erect mills for that purpote in all the great towns; and, were the fame adopted in London, it could not fail of beneficial confequences.

Mr. Rofe contended, that the carriage of corn to be ground from London, being by water, was not expensive.

Mr. Tierney was for the claufe.
The Houte agreed to it.

A claufe was alfo added, calculated to accelerate the abrogation of the allize, by -enacting, that the bill might be altered, or repealed, at any time during the prefeat feffion of Parlament, which was agreed to; and the bill, on the motion of Alderman Curtis, ordered to be printed.

December 3
The Foreign Correspondence and Militia
Ballot bills were read the third time, and
pafled.

An account was, prefented of the grain, flour, meal, malt, and rice, imported into, and exported from, Ireland, from March 25, 1790, to Sept, 29, 1801.

December 4.

Mr. Vanfittart moved for leave to bring in a bill to prohibit the datillation, of fpirits from wheat in Ireland.

Sir John Parnell wished that the probibition fhould be extended to oats alfo.

Mr. Carry obferved, that oats were the moit productive kind of grain, and that the extenfion pointed out would materially af fect the whole fyftem of things in Ireland. Mr. Wilberforce concurred in opinion with Sir John Parnell.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, “The bufinefs of the Distilleries has been much canvalled out of doors; and I fhall now declare my fentiments upon it. I never will compromise between my duties and my wifhes; I will uphold what I confider conducive to the welfare of my country, even against general opinion. I do affure the Houfe, that I cannot find any argument to fhew that the diftillation from grain fhould be prevented. It is admitted that, within the last 100 years, and parti cularly the last 20, the population of this country has rapidly increafed. During the lait nine or ten years, owing to the disturbances of Europe, which threw fuch an immenfity of trade into our hands, the confumption has also increased, in confes quence of the great opulence of the country. The importation of grain,fince 1790 and 1791, has aito prodigioully increased. Now, thefe effects and changes are only to be accounted for by the increase of trade and manufactures, which mûft naturally pro- increased confumption. By enduce an abling people to fupport a more expenfive mode of living, more of the neceffaries of life are ufed than when it was not fo much in their power to purchase them, - From the ftate of agriculture it appears, that this increase of confumption has increated the produce of the country; but the progrefs of agriculture is not fufficiently rapid to alwer the great and fudden increase of confumption. The true line to puriue then, under tuch circumitances, should be, to enCourage agriculture, and to remove all reftrictions upon the produce of the country, till regarding legitunate trade. Even under the apprehenfion of an uncommon fcarcity, it cannot be forgotten how Low the Houfe was to adopt the measure for the encouragement of importation, because a wife government will fufter a prete before it will have recourfe to any thing which might leffen the ftimulus to lio.ne cultivation, the exigency being temporary, but the benefit from agricultural extenfion permanent. It mult, therefore, be always the brft with and object to encourage na

tive