but falls a railing, because I reckon Pharisees and not the law, do by nature [mark, do by nature] the Quakers together. Only this much he saith; That I make it a light thing to be convinced by the law, and then brings in that scripture; This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men love darkness rather than light;' cunningly corrupting of it, and would fain have you understand it as spoken of the law, when the Son of Mary speaks it of himself, which was not the law, but the Saviour. And that he might the better go away undiscerned, he saith, and the law is light, therefore the light is the law (saith he). But I perceive that he doth not yet understand the difference between the light of the law, and the light of the gospel; but would fain make the law and Christ one Saviour: the one being but only a condemning light, and nothing else; the other a saving comfortable light. And whereas thou sayest, I make it a light thing to be convinced by the law, I answer; the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; and I honour it in its place; yet if they make a Saviour of it, they make an idol of it, and wrest it out of its proper place. Also, if they think that it is Christ, they are much deceived. By And But farther, he put me to prove any such distinction in scripture as that there is anything made mention of therein that doth convince of sin, beside the Spirit of Christ: which thing I have already answered, where I said the scripture saith, the law is the knowledge of sin.' Ro. iii. 20. again, doth not even nature itself teach you, that it is a shame for a man to wear long hair, 1 Co. xi. 14, and also conscience, which are neither of them the Spirit of Christ, but much inferior to the same; yet this also convinceth of sin. Jn. viii. 9. But to the other thing, which is the answer that I give in my book to this objection: But I am not only convinced of my sins (may some say) but have also some power against my sins; so that I do in some measure abstain from the sins forbidden in the law. And because I say, this thou mayest have and do, as thou thinkest, perfectly too [as thou thinks, mark that] as those fond hypocrites, called Quakers [think] that they also do, and yet be but a natural man. Here my adversary is very much offended, and calls me perverter of the right way of the Lord; and saith, Shew me any natural man in the scripture that hath done it. Whereas had he been but willing to have laid down the scripture I brought to prove it, he needed not to have looked for a second answer. But because he would have it again, I will therefore shew you, that natural men merely by nature may be convinced, and abstain from those things forbidden in the law, and think they do it perfectly, nay, they do the things contained in the law. For saith the apostle. Ro. i. 14, 'When the Gentiles, which have things contained in the law, these, [the Gentiles] having not the law, are a law unto themselves. Mark; the Gentiles do by nature the things contained in, or held forth, or made mention of by the law; the light also that they have, it is themselves, being a law to themselves; that is, their consciences (being of themselves) bearing them witness and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing, or else excusing one another, ver. 15. though they cannot be saved thereby. Again, when Paul was a natural man, and a persecutor of Jesus Christ, he saith of himself, that then he was, touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.' Phil. iii. 6. And whereas thou sayest, thou hadst rather choose to be one of those who abstain from those things forbidden in the law, and to have power over sin, than to live in the transgression of the law; this is fair spoken, and it doth shew that thou art under the convictions of the law; and if it be no worse, I fear thy state the less, though it be bad enough; yet this I say, If thy soul be not saved freely by the blood of that man who was crucified on Mount Calvary, and by his merits alone done by himself in his own person, thou, notwithstanding wilt fall short of eternal life. For by the works of the law, shall no flesh living be justified. Ro. iii. 20. Though by it be the knowledge of sin, and a command to abstain from the same. And thus have I spoken to thy 21 page. But farther thou sayest, that thou fearest I worship the name Mary, because I mention her name so much. There are more besides the Quakers. [I reply] If thou hadst said, I worship her Son, thou hadst said truly (I hope) But is not thy spite more against her offended at this Son, than her? I doubt it is; for neither thou, nor thy companions can endure that one should say, he is still the same that was born of Mary, flesh and bones, a very man, now absent from his people, though in them in his Spirit. Again, thou sayest I said, 'That as he is God, Christ lighteneth every man that comes into the world;' which thing again I say. What then? Then say you, I will mind you of one scripture which you yourself have quoted, which saith The law is light.' Pr. vi. 23. Therefore sayest thou, The light is the law.' Give me leave here to take thy words in twain: First, if when thou sayest, then the law is light, thou mean, the light of the law is the light of the law, and no more, thou sayest right. But if thou mean the light of the law, is the light of the gospel, or the Spirit of Christ, I must needs reprove thee. For I tell thee again, the law is not of faith, the law makes nothing perfect. He. vii, 19. The law is tion, He. vii. 13. though as I said before, it is good if it be used lawfully; which is, not to seck or look for justification thereby, nor yet to say, it is the Spirit of Christ. but a weak and unprofitable thing, as to justifica- | law, that he might redeem them that were under the law, by his obedience in that nature, by suffering in that nature, by his rising again in that nature, and by carrying that nature into heaven with him,' as the scriptures at large declare; and therefore, though I say God is our Saviour, and none besides him; yet they that own him to be the Saviour no otherwise than as he was before the world began, are such as deny that he is come in the flesh, and so are of antichrist. 1 Jn. ii. For before God could actually be a Saviour, he must partake of another nature than the divine, even the nature of man. He. ii. 14, 15. Then farther thou art offended, because I said, when the Spirit of Christ convinceth, it convinceth of more sins than the sins against the law. Friend, will the law shew a man that his righteousness is sin and dung? No, for though the law will shew a man that his failing in the acts of righteousness is sin; yet I question, whether the law will shew, that a man's own righteousness is sin. For there is in scripture [that which] saith it doth, or can. Secondly, shew me, if thou canst, that the sin of unbelief is spoken against in all the ten commandments, or that called the moral law. But now the Spirit of Christ convinceth of unbelief, that is, it sheweth, that if men do not believe, that they have redemption by the obedience of that man who was laid in the manger, hanged on the cross, &c. I say, it sheweth, that those who do not lay hold on what he hath done and suffered without them in his own body on the tree (through the operation of his Spirit, which he hath promised to give to them that ask him) or else they have not yet been convinced of the sin of unbelief, and so are still in a perishing condition; notwithstanding their strict obedience, to the light within them, or to the law. And now tell me, you that desire to mingle the law and the gospel together, and to make of both one and the same gospel of Christ: Did you ever see yourselves undone and lost, unless the righteousness, blood, death, resurrection and intercession of that man Christ Jesus (in his own person) was imputed to you? and until you could by faith own it as done for and counted yours you, by imputation, yea, or no? Nay rather, have you not set up your consciences, and the law, and counted your obedience to them better, and of more value, than the obedience of the Son of Mary without you, to be imputed to you? and if so, it is because you have not been savingly convinced by the Spirit of Christ, of the sin of unbelief. Other things thou dost quarrel against, but seeing they are in effect the same with the former, I pass them by; and shall come to the next thing thou dost think to catch me withal, and that is; because I say, that 'God only is the Saviour, there is none besides him.' Therefore sayest thou, how contrary is this to that in p. 24, where I say, How wickedly are they deluded, who own Christ no otherwise than as he was before the world began. Now this is no contradiction as thou wouldest have it; for though I say there is none but God our Saviour, yet I did also then in my book shew how he was our Saviour, namely, 'in that he came into the world, being born of a virgin, made under the Again, thou sayest, it is a slander put upon the Quakers, to say, they slight the resurrection: Ans. What say you, Do you believe the resurrection of the body after it is laid in the grave? Do you believe that the saints that have been this four or five thousand years in their graves shall rise, and also the wicked, each one with that very body wherein they acted in this world; some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt? Answer plainly, and clear yourselves, but I know you dare not, for you deny these things. But if you speak doubtfully, or covertly in answer thereunto; I doubt not but God will help me to find you out, and lay open your folly; if I shall live till another cavil by you be put forth against the truth. The next thing thou cavillest at is, that query raised from Ep. iv. 10. and thou sayest I have not answered it. You should have answered it better, or else have confuted that answer I gave unto it, and then you had done something: But the great thing that troubles thee is, because I say, (further in my book) he that ascended from his disciples, was a very man, Handle me and see; saith Christ, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.' Now let the adversary shew by the scripture (said I) that there is in them any place called heaven, which is able to contain a man of some four or five foot long (or a competent man of flesh and bones) for the space of fifteen or sixteen hundred years, but that above the clouds, which troubles thee so, that it makes thy tongue run thou canst not tell how; but know, that when the Son of man shall come from heaven to judge the world in righteousness, that which thou callest foolishness now, thou wilt find a truth then to thy own wrong, if thou close not in with him, who said, Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.' Lu. xxiv. 39. Another thing that thou art troubled at, is, in that I do reckon the Quakers to be of the deluding party; when alas, all men that have eyes to see; may easily discern, that you are of that generation, as will appear in part by your own expressions, both now, and also at other times. But that you may And lest you should think that the Quakers are not such as condemned me and others for preaching according to the scriptures; as you would fain clear yourselves of this charge laid against you in my book, by your saying, you deny the accusation to be true upon any of the Quakers. I shall therefore tell you of your sister Anne Blackly, who did bid me in the audience of many, To throw away the scriptures.' To which I answered, No, for then the devil would be too hard for me.' take off the brand from yourselves, you say, that | and wear no hatbands, is not walking after your the false prophets and antichrist, were in the own lusts; I say, that whatsoever men do make a apostle days, as though there should be no false religion out of, having no warrant for it in the prophets now, when the very time we live in scripture, is but walking after their own lusts, and doth manifestly declare, and hold forth, that not after the Spirit of God. Thus have I passed there are many, who at this day seek to beguile thy 23d page. unstable souls, of which sort you are not the least, though for ought I can learn as yet, you are the last, (that are come into the world) but that you may the better shift it from yourselves, you say, that in those days there was not a Quaker heard of; namely, in the days of John. Friend, thou hast rightly said, there was not a Quaker heard of indeed, though there were many Christians heard of then. By this you yourselves do confess, that you are a new upstart sect, which was not at other times in the world, though Christian saints have been always in the world. Friend, here like a man in the dark, in seeking to keep thyself out of one ditch, thou art fallen into another; instead of proving yourselves no false prophets, you prove yourselves no Christians, saying, There was not a Quaker heard of then. But if Quakers had been Christians, then they would have been heard of to the glory of God, and his Christ. Again to defend thyself thou throwest the dirt in my face, saying; If we should diligently trace thee, we should find thee in their steps, meaning false prophets, through fained words, through covetousness making merchandise of souls, loving the wages of unrighteousness. fal-e tions. accusa- so? Friend, dost thou speak this as from thy own Another of his knowledge, or did any other tell thee However, that spirit that led thee out this way, is a lying spirit. For though I be poor, and of no repute in the world, as to outward things; yet through grace I have learned by the example of the apostle to preach the truth; and also to work with my hands, both for mine own living, and for those that are with me, when I have opportunity. And I trust that the Lord Jesus, who bath helped me to reject the wages of unrighteousness hitherto, will also help me still, so that I shall distribute that which God hath given me freely, and not for filthy lucre's sake. Other things I might speak in vindication of my practice in this thing: but ask of others, and they will tell thee that the things I say are truth: and hereafter have a care of receiving anything by hearsay only, lest you be found a publisher of those lies which are brought to you by others, and so render yourself the less credible; but be it so. And as for your thinking, that to drink water, * *There is nothing new under the sun. It appears from this that there was a tee-total movement in the time of the Commonwealth. For the meaning of hatband, see editor's advertisement.-ED. VOL. II. And again, because I said, The man Christ Jesus was above the clouds and the heavens, now absent from his people in the world, touching his bodily presence; she said, I preached up an idol, and used conjuration and witchcraft. Which things I should rather have desired her to repent of, than to make her a public example for others to take warning by; but that it is expedient that your folly be laid open, that others may fear to do as you have done. This is another of his false ac cusations of me. But farther, thou chargest me with a loud crying out against Christ within. This is thy throwing of dirt in my face again, for I have said it often, that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. lie made of me. Again thou sayest that in page 203, Here is another I do take in hand to prove or discover that the doctrine of Christ within, is a false opinion. Thou dost also here speak falsely of me, for all that I take in hand to prove, is this, That they hold a false opinion (and principles too) who hold up a Christ within, in opposition to Christ without, who is the Saviour; as doth plainly appear by my following discourse, if you read from page 203 to the end of my book. But in the next place, after much railing, thou comest to the place where I again ask this question, Doth not the scripture make mention of a Christ within?' To which I answer, Yes, and he that hath it not is none of his. But to lay open my folly at last thou sayest, Doth not the scripture say, Christ is within you, except ye be reprobates? and is not this thus much, are not all they reprobates (say you) but they in whom Christ is within? Ans. They are indeed reprobates who have not Christ within them; but now, how is thy folly manifest? that in one place thou shouldest confess some are reprobates, who have not Christ within; and yet in page 18, of thy book thou sayest, it is given to every man. And in page 26, of thy 2 c book, thou sayest, that a measure of the Spirit is given to every man, and is given within him too, though the scripture declareth the contrary, and thyself also now at last. It is well thou dost recant so much, as to eat thy first words at the last, or at least to show thyself unstable in judgment: Friend, thou mayest see, the more thou dost fight against the truth, the more thou foilest thyself: Partly by helping of it, and partly by contradicting thyself. One thing more thou dost befool thyself with; and that is, in that thou in the first place sayest thou ownest the words in my book, and yet hath spent some four sheets of paper to vent thy thoughts against them. But peradventure thou wilt say; those words that I own are not those that I speak against, but the other. To which I answer, There are many things in my book spoken of by me that are truth, which if you own, you must leave professing yourself a Quaker. As, 1. That that man that was born of the virgin Mary, called Jesus (I say you will not own) that he in his own person, by himself without us, did completely bring in everlasting life for us, by offering up himself once for all upon the cross. 2. That Christ who wrought out redemption for his children, did after he had wrought it out, go away from them, and not into them in his person. 3. That he ever liveth, that very man to make intercession in his person, in the presence of his Father without, until the end of the world. 4. That that very man who did go away from his disciples into heaven, will come again personally the same man the second time, and before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall judge them for their sins and take his to himself, who shall soul and body be with him to all eternity; these things (I say) thou couldest not own, though they are the truth of God. But leaving thee to the great God, who will give thee according to thy works, in this as in other things: I shall come to thy answers to my queries. Now thy answer, is, Some are sensual, having not the Spirit, because they receive it not, and some cannot receive it, because they believe not on him from whence it comes.' Yet sayest thou, The measure of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal,' as the scriptures say: when there is no scripture faith, a measure of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. But again, see here thy strange confusion. 1. To say, some have it not. 2. To say every man hath it. But you would make a difference between having and receiving: but I tell thee, he that hath it hath received it, Ga. iii. 2. and he that hath not received it, hath it not. Jude 19. Query 2. My second query was, 'What is the church of God redeemed by from the curse of law? Is it by something done within them, or by something done without them?' If you say, it is redeemed by something that worketh in them, then why did the man Christ Jesus hang on the cross on Mount Calvary, without the gate of Jerusalem, for the sins of his children? And why do the scriptures say, "That through this man is preached to us the forgiveness of sins?' The answer thou givest is, 'The church of God is redeemed by Christ Jesus, which is revealed in all believers. And Christ Jesus wrought in them mightily; And it was he that wrought in them to will and to do.' This is plain scripture, and the man Christ Jesus (sayest thou) hanged on the cross on Mount Calvary: because, they wickedly judged him to be a blasphemer, and through their envy persecuted him to death; because he bare witness against them, and as in their account he died, and hanged on the cross, for an evil doer. And this is one ground (at least) why he hanged on the cross, &c. Ha Friend? I had thought thou hadst not been so much hardened; art thou not ashamed thus to slight the death of the Man Christ Jesus on the cross; and reckon it not effectually for salvation, but sayest, the church is redeemed by Christ Jesus which is revealed within. And to confirm it, thou dost also corruptly bring in two scriptures. 6 The one saith, Whereunto I also labour according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.' By which words Paul signifies thus much, That as God was with him in the ministry of the word, so did he also strive according to his working which wrought in him mightily.' What is this to the purpose? See Col i 26-30. And also, the other scripture makes nothing to prove, that the church of God is redeemed by Christ within, as he is within. Only you must corrupt the scriptures, and be transformed (though ministers of darkness) into an angel of light, if you will do any mischief. Query 1. The first query that I propounded is, If thou sayest that every man hath a measure of the Spirit of Christ within him, why say the scriptures, Some are sensual, having not the Spirit.' And when Christ telleth his disciples, of sending them the Spirit, he saith, the world cannot receive it. Here in the first place thou hast not only answered deceitfully, but hast also corrupted my words in laying down the query, in that thou didst leave out some words, for thou didst lay it down thus: If thou sayest that every man hath a measure of the Spirit of Christ within him, why say the scriptures, some are sensual, having not the Spirit:' and Christ saith, The world cannot And now, that thy answer is false, I shall clearly receive it.' (Reader, compare them both together.) | prove. First, because thou deniest that redemp Friend, How dost thou run about the bush, seeking to scrabble up an answer, but findest not a right one, and wouldest also fain hold out, that Christ is, or was crucified within, dead within, risen and ascended within; but seeing thou canst not with or by the scriptures give an answer; then seeing thyself left of them, through the strength of carnal reason, thou goest about this way. Is there any of our names made mention of in scripture, or to that purpose, and wouldst fain infer from thence, that because we have names, though not mentioned in scripture, therefore, Christ is, and was crucified within, though not mentioned in the scriptures. Friend, Thy sophistry deceives thee. The second Argument, which is like the first, is this, He is the Lamb slain in the streets of the great city, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Now from the word 'spiritually,' thou wouldest willingly infer also, that Christ is and was crucified within, dead within, and risen within you, and therefore thou sayest, mind spiritually. Friend, I may well mind thy spiritual wickedness, by which thou wouldest willingly cover thy heresy, but it will not be. Though thou dare not speak plainly in so many words, yet the thoughts of thy heart are made manifest, by the words that flow from thee. tion was wrought out for sinners by the Man Christ | answer from them that are led by a spirit of Jesus on the cross, or tree, on Mount Calvary; delusion. when the scripture saith plainly, that when he did hang on the tree, then did he bear all our sins there in his own body. 1 Pe. ii. 24. And secondly, In thy saying it is redeemed by Christ within, by being within; when the work of the Spirit of Christ in believers, is to make known to the soul by dwelling within, which way and how they were redeemed by the Man Christ Jesus on the cross. And this I prove farther, because when thou art forced to answer to these words, Why did the Man Christ Jesus hang on the cross on Mount Calvary for the sins of his children? Thou sayest, because they wickedly judged him to be a blasphemer. Friend, I did not ask thee why the Jews did put him to death? But why was he crucified there for the sins of his children? But thou willing to cover over thine error, goest on cunningly saying, and through their envy they persecuted him to death, for an evil doer. This is one ground at least, &c. Friend, but that thou art ashamed to own the gospel of Jesus Christ, thou wouldest have said, he was crucified there for the sins of the world; and by his offering up of himself upon the cross, he did for ever perfect them that are sanctified. Nay, thou wouldest have studied to exalt his dying there; first, by shewing what a sad condition we were in without it; Secondly, by holding forth the manifold and great privileges that we have by his dying for us there. But thou art at enmity against the things of God, as is clearly seen by those that have indeed the Spirit of God in them, and are enabled thereby to discern you. And though you say, there is no other that can forgive sin, nor the blood of any other that can take away sin, but the blood of God. Yet thou deniest, that the blood of him, who was, and is truly God as well as Man, Christ Jesus: I say, thou deniest that his blood that was shed without Jerusalem Gates, doth wash away sin from the saints of God: and cunningly (though not at this time uttered) concluding that the blood of God was shed for sin on a cross within. If it be not so, then call me liar; but it will clearly appear so to be in your answer to my third query. Query 3. What scripture have you to prove, that Christ is, or was crucified within you, dead within you, risen within you, ascended within you? Ah Friend! That thou couldest but close with the truth, and venture thy soul upon what was done by Jesus on the cross without the gates of Jerusalem, for it is by and through that blood that was there shed that we have redemption, (He. xiii. 12. compared with Col. i. 20.) and remission of sins, Ep. i. 7. and 1 Pe. ii. 24. Query 4. My fourth query was, Is that very Man that was crucified between two thieves, whose name was Jesus the Son of Mary, is he the very Christ of God, yea, or nay? Thy Answer is, Yes, he is the very Christ of God, which was before the world was, by whom the world was made, who was made manifest from Mary's womb, and was persecuted to death by the Scribes and Pharisees, in whose steps thou treadest in asking subtile questions to ensnare the innocent, as they did. Read thy example (sayest thou) and thyself to be an enemy to God's Christ. This Answer is doubtfully given, I did not ask thee whether he was the Christ of God, that was Thy answer is, There is no scripture that mentions every of our names in particular. And thy query (sayest thou) is raised from a misunder-before the world was; but I asked thee whether he standing of us, so I judge. But Christ is within us, that we do not deny, and he is the Lamb that was slain in the streets of the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom, and Egypt (mind spiritually) and he is now risen, and ascended; this we know, and leave thee to receive a further was the Christ of God, that did hang between two thieves on Mount Calvary. Now I know the Christ of God was before the world was; but thou art afraid to look upon him, as suffering on the cross on Mount Calvary, between two thieves for our sins. But contrary-wise, wouldst willingly own |