Chancellor. Then you deny that the prince hath any authority to command things indifferent. A. You have said more than I have done all day. Your unjust charge is contrary to what I have said. I wonder you can charge me so falsely to my face. B. You run to your former distinction. A. It is not my distinction, but Tertullian's; and it is that distinction which you will never be able to condemn. I trust I have now confirmed the truth, and shewed sufficient reason why I may not wear the surplice, there being no reason why I should. B. No, indeed! your reasons are no reasons. A. They are such as have not yet been answered, and I am persuaded, will not be answered. I am not afraid that all these things should be made known, that the learned may judge. C. Yes, you would have them in print, would you not? A. I thought of no such thing. But, as a witness for the truth, I am not ashamed that these things should undergo the examination of the learned and the godly.* The second conference was about the use and signification of the cross in baptism. Upon Mr. Axton's appearance before the bishop and others, being required to deliver his opinion, he spoke as follows: A. Nothing may be added to the institution of Christ: as, I have received of the Lord, that which also I delivered unto you. But the cross in baptism is an addition to the institution of Christ. Therefore the cross in baptism is unlawful. B. The necessary parts of the sacrament are to be retained; but whether the water be poured upon the child's forehead, or it be marked with a cross, being ceremonial, is left to the determination of the church. A. If you produce as good warrant from the word, for the crossing of the child, as I can for the washing of it, then I will grant that the church has authority so to determine. But such warrant cannot be produced. Besides, we have just reason to leave out the cross, because papists abuse it to superstition and idolatry, and in itself it is entirely useless. C. Do you then say it is a sin to make any cross? * MS. Register, p. 26—37. matician, making crosses, any more than it is in his making lines and angles. B. You would take away the liberty of the church, to establish or alter these things. A. The church is the spouse, and hath no authority to introduce any thing that will dishonour Jesus Christ, her true husband. B. Hath not the church liberty to use the font, or the bason, or both? A. The church may use that which is necessary, to hold the water for baptism, as becometh the institution of Christ. B. But I can shew you that matters of greater importance were altered by the apostles themselves. A. What are they? B. That they might not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. A. Do you mean that the apostles did not always baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? B. Yes; and I can shew you that they did not always use that form of words.-" For," it is said, " as yet the Holy Ghost was come upon none of them, only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." A. Because they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, does that prove they were not baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? How can you from this, charge the apostles with altering the institution of their Master; they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; therefore, you say, they did not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Because one part of the action is mentioned, does that prove they did not attend to the other parts? C. You may not take such advantage of my lord. B. I did not say, that the apostles did not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; but that it was probable they did not. A. Yes, you said you could shew this; and you have not shewn it to be certain, or even probable. B. The cross, you say, is no part of baptism: only an addition to the sacrament. What say you then of the sig nification of the cross? A. To use such signs, tokens, or instructions in the service of God, which are only the inventions of men, is the fancy of papists. And they draw us not unto the spiritual service of God, but from it. B. But the cross is used as a token only, that we should not be ashamed of the cross of Christ. W. And is it not lawful to be taught not to be ashamed of Christ? A. Yes; but we may not teach by unlawful means. Where doth the word of God warrant us, that making a cross, signifies that we should not be ashamed of Christ? W. Would you then take all symbolical signs out of the church of God? B. The church hath authority to ordain all symbolical signs, that are useful in the church. Therefore the church hath authority to ordain the cross in baptism. A. This is only begging the question. You are as far from the mark as ever. B. Is not the cross a symbolical sign, that is useful in the church of God? A. That is the point in dispute, and yet remains to be proved. B. What scriptures have you against the cross? A. In the second commandment, we are forbidden to use in the service of God, "The likeness of any thing." But the cross in baptism is the likeness of something: Therefore the cross in baptism is forbidden, and may not be used. C. May we not then make the likeness of any thing? A. The commandment meaneth, that we should make no likeness of any thing for a religious purpose. We may not make the likeness of any thing in heaven or earth, for a religious purpose. But the cross in baptism is the likeness of something in heaven or earth, and appointed for a religious purpose. Therefore we may not make the cross in baptism. The making of the cross, because for a religious purpose, is here forbidden. Barker. The cross in baptism is not forbidden in the first commandment. A. I did not say it was. It is sufficient that it is forbidden in the second. Barker. But the same thing is meant in them both. A. You confound the first and second commandments, and, like the papists, make them to be the same. I must say, this is great ignorance. Barker. I am not so ignorant as you suppose. A. Your own words do betray you. B. You are too captious. He shall reason you out of it. Barker. The making of the cross in baptism is not forbidden in all the prophets; and, therefore, not in the commandment.. A. You had better first prove, that the cross is not forbidden in all the prophets. Your reasoning is not good. C. If God have bestowed better gifts upon you, than upon others, you must thank him for it; but not contemn other mens' gifts. A. God forbid that I should contemn the gifts of God. in any man. B. What say you about kneeling at the communion? A. Jesus Christ and his apostles received the communion sitting, and why may we not imitate them? Barker. Jesus Christ, with his apostles, celebrated the communion sitting, because he had immediately before,: celebrated the passover sitting. A. After the celebration of the passover, Christ arose and washed the feet of his disciples. Then it is said, he did again sit down to celebrate the communion; which shews, that he preferred doing it sitting, rather than in any other posture.* B. Mr. Axton, I have other questions to propose to you. What think you of the calling of bishops, or of my: calling? A. I am not ignorant of the danger I may fall into, by. answering your question. Yet I am not compelled to answer it, not being accused of any crime. B. Yes, I may compel you to answer upon your oath. A. But I may choose whether I will answer you upon my oath. B. I may urge you with your own speeches, which you delivered the last time you were before me. A. What I then spoke to the glory of God, that will I also speak now. * The learned Beza, in his letter to Bishop Grindal, said, "If you have rejected the doctrine of transubstantiation, and the practice of adoring the host, why do you symbolize with popery, and seem to hold both by kneeling at the sacrament? Kneeling had never been thought of, had it not been for transubstantiation." Grindal replied, that though the sacrament was to be received kneeling, yet the rubric accompanied the service book, and informed the people, that no adoration of the elements was intended. “O! I understand you," said Beza, “there was a certain great lord, who repaired his house, and, having finished it, left before his gate, a great stone, for which he had no occasion. This stone caused many people in the dark to stumble and fall. Complaint was made to his lordship, and many a humble petition was presented, praying for the removal of the stone; but he remained long obstinate. At length, he condescended to order a lanthorn to be hung over it. My lord, said one, if you would be pleased to rid yourself of further solicitation, and to quiet all parties, order the stone and the candle to be both removed."-Robinson's Claude, vol. ii. p. 77. B. You then said, that every minister of God is a bishop, and to be a bishop is only to be a minister of God. You said also, that no bishop in England had authority to excommunicate. A. I said so, indeed; and proved what I said by the word of God. I am not bound to bring myself into danger; but because I am persuaded it will advance God's glory, I will speak, be the consequence what it will. I trust in the Holy Spirit, that I shall be willing to die in defence of the truth. B. Then what say you of my calling? A. You are not lawfully called to be a bishop, according to the word of God. B. I thought so: But why? A. For three reasons,-1. Because you were not ordained by the consent of the eldership. B. But I had the hands of three or four bishops. A. That is not the eldership St. Paul speaks of, 1 Tim. iv. 14. B. By what eldership were you ordained? Was it not by a bishop? A. I had, indeed, the laying on of the hands of one of the bishops of England, but that was the least part of my calling. B. What calling had you more? A. I having exercised and expounded the word several times in an orderly assembly of ten ministers, they joined in prayer; and being required to speak their consciences, they declared upon the trial they had of me, that they were persuaded I might become a profitable labourer in the house of God. After this I received the laying on of the hand of the bishop. B. But you had not the laying on of the hands of those preachers. A. No: I had the substance, but wanted the accident; and in this, I beseech the Lord to be merciful unto me. For the laying on of hands, as it is the word, so it is agreeable to the mighty action of ordaining the ministers of God. A. Then your ordination is imperfect as well as mine. A. Mine is imperfect for want of the accident: the Lord be merciful to me for it. And yours is imperfect for want of the substance. B. What is your second reason? A. Because you are not ordained bishop over any one flock |