“founded upon a system of general policy, "and not local interest; for he was there "not as a man locally interested by the

views of any particular place, or any one "set of men, but as one of the members of "parliament for the United Kingdom, and

as such he could not see any advantage to be derived from the substitution proposed, "but did apprehend a great deal of mischief. "The hon. baronet then adverted to the "great advantage that resulted to the reve"nue from the grain distillery, and asked,

whether with all this profit from the landholders, besides the property tax and others, it was a wise or a just measure to throw any obstacle in the way of the cultivation of land, and to diminish its produce? With respect to the sugar distil lery, great as the injury would be to the landed interest, this boon would be pro46 ductive of very little advantage to the growers of sugar. The high price of bar4 ley and other grain in Scotland was partly owing to the great quantities that had been bought and distilled there, from an apprehension of this prohibition of distillation from grain. As to what had been *said about the advantage which this prohi

bition would prove to the people, he observed, that he was of a totally different Lopinion, and in this he was supported by a very high authority on the subject. As to the stoppage of foreign importation, he hoped that we might soon have an opportunity of importing from America, as we abready might from our own colonies in * the north of that continent. But besides 131 this, the measure might be made use of of as a precedent for interference with the 1.1% production of cora, a thing which it was

most important to guard against. If any 15% rational plan of relief could be proposed. for the West India interests, he would gladly concur, in it. But he could not "consent that they should thus be relieved. at the expense of a particular class of the community. The apprehension of such a measure as this had excited the greatest alarm throughout the country; and it was "important in every point of view that it "should not receive the sanction of the le

gislature." MR. CRWEN gave credit to the noble lord, for the manner in which f he had brought it forward; but asked "how he had cuae to change his opinion,

and swerve from the Report in one day? 4. However, he would not argue from the Report, but take the proposition as it now stood. With respect to the lodging these discretionary powers in the crown, be Abought that this system was attended

"with very bad effects, and he was by no "means fond of the idea of encouraging the practice. In order to shew that the country might be sufficiently supplied with grain, he adverted to the excellent "effects that had resulted from Mr. Wes"tern's act by the increase of agriculture. "He was a wise minister that assented to "that act, and resisted the clamour raised "against it at the time. Though the im "mediate effect of that might have been to "raise the price of corn, yet the ultimate "effect was to render it cheaper, as it ena "bled the landholder to raise corn upon "those acres upon which none could other "wise have been produced. He mention "ed, as another reason, the improvement "in the breed of cattle, by which in Scot "land, and other places, double the quanti"ty of meat was produced, with the same "quantity of animal provisions, so that much "less land was necessary for pasture, and "( more was left for the production of grain, of which the prices had never before been

so regular. In Devizes, and other places in "the neighbourhood, more grain had been "stored up than ever had been known at "any former period; and the present rise "in the price of grain, was owing to the "alarm of the distillers, who had been buy

ing up, and distilling as much of it as pos"sible, from an apprehension of this mea sure. Still, however, if the proposition had come from the chancellor of the exchequer, or any responsible minister of "the crown, he would not have been so "much inclined to persist in objecting to "a discretionary power of stopping the dis"tillation from grain, if the circumstances "of the country should require it, without "reference to the case of the West India

the great improvement that had taken place in the agricultural system of Norfolk, by which every 7th acre was employbed in raising winter food for cattle

in other places not more than the one“hundredth. If the same plan should be << adopted in other places, a sufficient quan

tity of meat would be produced to afford half a pound of meat a day to 10 millions "of people." MR. MARRYATT could

not agree with those who thought that the interests of the West India planters were to be thrown entirely out of consideration, and maintained that a case of the utmost distress had been made out by them. When the account of the Ameri * can embargo arrived, he, along with **others, as a deputation from the West In

dial committee, waited on the chancellor **of the exchequer to ask, whether govern

ment would consent that the restrictions "on the exportation of corn to the colonies "would be taken off? And upon this being

refused, it was suggested that sugar might be substituted for grain in the distilleries, **as this would be only relieving them with

the money that was sent to be paid to fo***reigners for corn. It ought to be remem 34 bered that in former committees on this subject, the plan went to the breweries and to the distillation of molasses; at present it went no farther than the distilLeries and distillation from sugar; so that the measure was much simplified, and the financial difficulties in a great measure got rid of. It ought also to be kept in view, that the committee still continued "its labours, and had a report in forward**ness pointing out a permanent plan of relief, by which any recourse to this mea*sure in future would be rendered unnecessary. He denied that the system of agriculture would be deranged, for the crop * of this year was in the ground, and before the next year's crop could come in, the *measure would have answered its pur5 pose, and of course cease. He also de

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nied that the general interests of the country would be at all injured, since the quantity of corn thrown into the market "would be so much less than what had

sugar of the captured colonies into the "home market, contrary to the good faith "on which our own colonists had rested. He "further contended, that there was no ip"tention here to relieve one class at the

expense of another. The landholders "were in possession of an advantage which "the fortune of war had given them, and "they ought, out of that advantage, to allow something to other subjects of the empire, on whose interests the war had produced an effect so injurious." ĠENERAL "GASCOYNE had understood that the ques❝tion had been postponed yesterday, with a "view to some compromise, but what that "was he was yet to learn, for he saw from "the agricultural gentlemen nothing but "the most pointed opposition. But he "should like to know by whom that com

promise was inade, or who authorised it? "The committee was no party to such a "compromise, and the hon. member for "Norfolk had shewn no inclination to come "into the noble lord's proposition." | Bat "after all the delusion, and all the clamour "that had been excited on this subject, "it appeared, after all, from what the "noble lord said, that the question was "to be discussed without reference to the "relief of the sugar planters! What had "the committee been appointed for botto "consider of a mode of affording them Tc"lief? And was he now to abstain from

stating their distresses? The advocate's "of the high price of provisions refused any "relief to the planters till a scarcity should "take place, when they would humanely

permit them to share the profitsthey derived from the distress of the country! If the "planters were to be relieved only by the "calamity of the country, he wished (Hey * might be long without relief. It had been "said that the colonies were well reple

sented in parliament.' How did that appear There never was any objection to

profit by the high duties imposed on their produce. They were valuable as a subject of taxation; but when they became a subject of legislation, then they were degraded as well as injured, as in the in"stance of the bill that passed two years ago. "After stating the impossibility that the co"lonies could keep up the competition in "the foreign market with the Americans, "who supplied the enemy with the sugar "of their own colonies, the hon. gen. ad"verted to the opinion of the representative "of the county of Norfolk, that the sitting "of the committee had raised the price "of grain. He affirmed, on the contrary, "that had it not been for the sitting of the "committee, the price would have been dou"ble (a loud laugh) he meant of course, "that the rise would have been double. The "distress of the colonies was not only severe, "but urgent, and the admission of grain in<< to the distilleries was the only mode of ear

ly relief, and if this was denied at the "end of the session, all the previous proceed

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ings could only be considered as a tub "thrown out to amuse the planters." " -MR. CHUTE did not intend, when "he came into the house, to have said any thing, but had resolved to leave the discussion to those who could do the subject so much more justice. But he "could not avoid taking notice of the as persions which had been cast on the country gentlemen by the general under the gallery a thing the less to be surprised at as coming from an avowed advocate of the "slave trade. The opposition to this mea

sure, he observed, was founded on the "clearest and most solid principles, and be "most conscientiously joined in it. Trade

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might suffer for a time, without any great "loss to the community, or affecting in a "material degree the general interests. Bat "it was far otherwise with agriculture: "when that was injured the whole country

must be injured with it. Nothing, there"fore, ought to come into competition "with this great national object. "measure, if passed, would derange the

This

agricultural system, and change the whole "method of cropping. The agricultural "interests ought not surely to pay for the speculations of the colonists. On these

"grounds he would oppose the measure. "With respect to the imputations of the ge"neral under the gallery, he would leave "it to others to give him a detailed answer." - ir. JAMES FITZGERALD would consi"der the case on the evidence in the Re"port, where it was recommended not to "extend the measure to Ireland-and yet

"the noble lord, by his Resolutions, propo"sed to apply it to the whole of the United

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Kingdom. Many, he said, were not aware to what extent the Resolutions "would go. It was to one paragraph in the Report that he wished particularly to call "the attention of the house. He then read "the paragraph that stated the reasons for not applying the measure to Ireland ; and observed, that in this the committee were "unanimous, and yet the noble lord came forward and proposed, that the measure "should extend to Ireland, without mentioning any ground for this alteration, Though gentlemen had been almost put "to the torture in order to extract evidence "from them that the measure might be ap

plied to Ireland, yet the result was against "it. He would oppose the Speaker's leaving "the chair."-" THE CHANCELLOR of the "EXCHEQUER observed, that gentlemen "had alluded to a compromise. He was

not aware of any such compromise, nor "had his noble friend, as far as he under"stood him, affirmed that any had taken

place. If there had been any compro"mise, and any discredit attached to it,' the "hon. general had certainly shewn that he "was no party to it, and that none of the "dicredit would rest with him. He under"stood his noble friend to have said, that "he had postponed his resolutions on the " former day, from an idea, arising from "the nature of the objections, that a trial

sugar planters out of the question, though "the committee had been expressly appoint. "ed to devise a plan for their relief. He "did not think that his noble friend had de

parted from the character or spirit of the Report, for the measure was there recom"mended only with a view to the diminished supply of corn, and a power was accordingly recommended to be vested in "the crown, to stop the suspension when "the continuance of it should be inconve "nient or injurious to the agricultural inte"rests, and not desirable with a view to pre"vent a scarcity of food. If his noble "friend then felt that a notion prevailed, "that the design was to remunerate the sugar planters, and to sacrifice the landed to the West-India interest, was it notexpedient that the thing should be placed on

"its true ground, and that it should be stated, that, independent of the West"India interest, there were good reasons " for the adoption of such a measure? That was his view of the subject, and the view " of his noble friend, who had kept strictly "to the spirit of the Report. The hon. ge"neral was, however, indignant at the de

lay, and said, that from the 1st of July to "the 1st of Oct., the distilleries would be "stopped at any rate. But his noble friend " here again had only followed the spirit of "the committee's recommendation, for the * committee had proposed, that the suspen.66 sion should commence from the 1st of July and continue till July the follow"ing year, still leaving a discretionary

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power with the crown. The proposition " of his noble friend, that the distillation " from sugar should commence on the 1st "of July, and continue till Oct., with a "discretionary power in the crown to con"tinue it still further, till 30 days after the "meeting of the next session of parliament,

was in substance exactly correspondent to "the Report. (Gen. Gascoyne said across "the table, that he had understood that "the sugar was not to be substituted between July and Oct., except in a case of scarcity). That, indeed, would have afforded some ground for the hon. general's "objection, but his noble friend had express❝ly stated that sugar was to be substituted, "and the hon. general might recollect that " he had mentioned his intention of propos ing a reduction of the duty on sugar wash, "in order to enable the distilleries to em

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ploy sugar with advantage. Another rea"son for desiring an interval was to considèr "how the difficulty, with respect to re

land, could be got over. The bon. gent. (Mr. Fitzgerald) who had expressed him* self so strongly with regard to a recom"mendation of the committee, which he * considered as an attempt to violate the “act of union, was hardly reasonable in

his objection to a compromise, by which "that difficulty was done away, and the "Resolution proposed in such a shape

as made it a common question with respect to both countries. That this ren dered the proposition more difficult he al"lowed; but when both countries were united, and the trade in grain perfectly free between them, it appeared that there was no step that could be taken to save the grain here that did not equally apply to Ireland. When there was abundance or scarcity in one country, they would be equally felt in the other. If the prices fliere were high, they must likewise be

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"high there, and vice versa, so that the same measure of precaution ought to apply to both. If this had been solely a competition of interests, there was no question the landed interest ought to have "the preferenee; but when another interest might be promoted without prejudice to the landed interest, surely the propo"sition could not be rejected, merely be66 cause a measure, expedient in itself, might happen to afford relief to the sugar planters. He agreed, therefore, that "the question ought not to be argued on ground of relief to the West India planters; although that was not to be thrown "out of consideration entirely. He then put it to the judgment of the house, though fortunately there was not at pre"sent a scarcity, yet, in the deficiency of "the means of supply, and the badness of "the crop, under the apprehension of a "possibly scarcity, and the foreign ports. "shut against us, whether it was not wise "to provide beforehand against the effects "of these threatening appearances? These "who put the question on the generat

principle, did not argue fairly; for "the present was different from ordinary cases, and hence the hon. baronet's (sir J. Sinclair) arguments, though they might apply very much to former times, "did not at all apply to our present situa"tion. We had been an exporting, we

are now an importing, nation. Theaight "hon. gent, then adverted to the evidence of "Mr. Arthur Young, and others, and con"tended that the case was clearly made out, "that the crop was deficient, and that it was "expedient to adopt some such measure as "the present. He denied that the high price "could possibly result from the agitation "of this question. The effect of that must "have been quite of a contrary description. "The cause was the scarcity in Scotland, "and the different crops in other places. It "would be improper to bring the measure "into operation sooner than the 1st of Jul

as the distillers ought to have time to dis "pose of that grain which they had in such a state that it could be applied to no other purpose. He stated that the crop of po"tatoes had failed in Ireland, and that by "the effect of this proposition the people "there would have other food cheaper. The ་་ measure ought always to be considered as a temporary one. He admitted that it was his duty to take care of the revenue, " and that this was an important considers"tion. But he believed that the reyente

be got over. He hoped, upon the whole, that those gentlemen who objected to the quarter from which the proposition came, "would dismiss from their minds, in considering the subject, every thing except its real merits. This was the proper view of it, and he hoped that no strenuous opposition would be persisted in."-" MR. PONSONBY declared, that if he had not read the resolutions proposed by the noble lord, he would have voted for the motion of going into the committee; but the reading of these resolutions was sufcient to satisfy his mind as to the pro15 priety of an opposite course. The gen"lemen on the other side, he ob"served, had taken quite different routes "to recommend the measure of the noble lord. One had pleaded for it as necessary to relieve the West India merchants, while another contended that it was called for in order to guard against scarcity. To shew that the latter ground was erroneous, the right hon. gent. entered into a comparative statement of the prices of corn, at various periods, particularly in Ireland; and he also quoted several passages from the evidence taken before the committee to prove that this ground was quite untenable. As to the reliet of the West India merchants, he was as anxious for it as any man, but to the "mode now proposed, he strongly objected; and, in particular, because he did not think this mode could be effective.". SIR A WELLESLEY asserted, that the people of Ireland, and especially in the north, were very much distressed for provisions, which distress would, he maintained, render a measure of this nature necessary, whatever might be the state of the West **India merchants.CoL. MONTGOMERY

10

stated, that the scarcity of the potatoe Crops in that part of Ireland with which he was acquainted, had been such last year as to afford scarcely enough to spare for the ordinary cultivation or seed, The consequence therefore was to produce a proportionable scarcity of corn, which "he thought the measure under consideration calculated to alleviate, if not to remedy; therefore he should vote for it."SIR JOHN, NEWPORT was surprized at the statement, that the north of Ireland had recently experienced any material want of provisions, as the price of corn had not been for several months at all flac

"the price of corn at Waterford, 1Hẻ: go

nerally deprecated the interposition of "the legislature opon subjects of this na-" "ture. He thought such interposition in "almost every instance, extremely noxious.

Indeed, experience had proved that no"thing but imperious necessity could excuse it. To such interposition he belier. "ed it was owing that this country was "not able to grow sufficient food for << its population population as it formerly did.. "From the enactment of Mr. Parnell's "act to the present, the interposition he deprecated was found injurious. Asto "the rise which had recently taken place "in the prices of sugar and corn, it appear "ed to him to proceed from the specula "tions likely to arise out of the existence of a committee upon this subject.""MR. FOSTER stated, in the most un"equivocal terms, that he meant to vote "in opposition to his colleagues. His

reasons were: in the 1st place, he "thought it to be contrary to all acknow "ledged maxims of agriculture to say,

that we should prevent the use of grain "in one of its regular channels, merely for the benefit of the West India colo"nists; and in the 2d place, if there were

any ground for such a prohibition, it "ought to be shewn that the necessity of "adopting such a measure arose from the

dearth or scarcity of grain, or some just "cause for the apprehension that such a

case was likely to happen. The corn of "the country was by the wisest and most

experienced politicians left in general to "find its own level in the market, by the **nsual means of competition among the "dealers. When there was a bad harvest, "and the price of grain advanced much

higher than usual, there were always per "sous ready to import from foreign mar"kets, and thus keep down the price whilst "they promoted their own interests. But "it never could be the interest of any state "to be disregardful of the interests of the "farmer, and not to leave him some open"ing to dispose of the surplus of his crop. "These opportunities were first, in the sale

at the breweries and distilleries, and se"condly, by exportation. He believed that "this was the first time in the English his "tory, except in a time of scarcity, or the "apprehension of such an event, that ever "the legislature attempted thus to tamper

with the agricultural interests of the nation. Besides that, he could not believe that it was capable of affording any sub

that suol

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aturally concluded would are affected affected

or planters and if the house once adopted such a measure, and left suchica precedent

Mr