notices should not be superseded by Go- | time to prepare the documents he required. vernment business which happened to be also on the paper. Mr. Hume believed it to be highly necessary that a different arrangement from that now in force should take place before hon. Members could feel satisfied with the chance they had of executing business confided to their care. He had always thought it would be a far better plan, that instead of taking, as they did now, arbitrarily, the first or thirty-first topic on the list, they should be each taken up and debated in the exact order in which they were placed on the list. Lord Althorp observed, that he could not accede to a proposition which he felt would be productive of great inconvenience to Government, He hoped the arrangement he proposed, would prove that he really was anxious to afford greater facilities to individual Members, though at an expense to the officers of Government. He should, therefore, move a resolution that Orders of the Day should take precedence of notices on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and that on Wednesdays those of Government should not be entitled to pre cedence. Resolution agreed to. 12 HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] Returns ordered. On the Motion of Lord paid Duty in the same year. HIS MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.] The Lord Chancellor said, he begged to inform the House, that their Lordships had waited upon his Majesty with the Address of that House, to which his Majesty was pleased to return the following most gracious answer. He wished to move for Returns respecting the Financial Affairs of India, and also for a Report of the Committee of the House of Commons of last Session, with a view to determine how far the commercial means of the East-India Company went to meet its expenditure, without calling upon the assistance of the mother country. He could not help taking advantage of that opportunity to say a few words with respect to the-as it appeared to him-extraordinary omission of all allusion to the affairs of our Indian possessions in the Speech from the Throne. He must infer from that omission, that it was not intended, during the present Session, to bring the question of the EastIndia Company's Charter before Parliament. He owned, that he was not surprised at this, when he considered that the parliamentary duties of the President of the Board of Control were so severe during the last Session, that it was physically impossible he could have discharged the ordinary duties of his office in an adequate and proper manner. He knew it might be said, that the Charter of the East-India Company did not expire until 1834; but he begged to remind their Lordships, that they were now at the commencement of the Session of 1832, and that, if they put off the consideration of this great question to the next year, they would defer it to the last moment, and be compelled to come to a hasty decision upon a question of the last importance to the community. Indeed he felt, that the opinions expressed by the noble Lords opposite, in 1813, when the question was brought forward at an advanced period of the year, were so strong, in condemnation of the postponement of the measure until the eleventh hour at that time, that he could not avoid entertaining great hopes that Government would now afford complete time for the discussion of the subject. Upon that occasion it was utterly impossible for their Lordships pro "My Lords:-I thank your Lordships for your loyal and dutiful Address, and I rely with just confidence upon your zealous co-perly to consider the question. The bill operation in all measures calculated to improve the condition of my subjects, and to maintain the honour and high character of my_country." Earl Grey moved, that his Majesty's most gracious answer to the Address, be entered on the Journals. Ordered accordingly. AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Lord Ellenborough said, he rose to move for certain Returns, and he did so at that early period of the Session, because it would take some for regulating the affairs of India was passed in the House of Commons on the 13th of July; it passed the Lords on the 16th, and received the Royal Assent on the 21st of the same month. He again said, that for these reasons he was quite satisfied that the noble Lords opposite would not fall into the course they had then so severely and properly condemned; but would now afford the amplest time to their Lordships for considering this great question in all its bearings. Since the period to which he had alluded, a Committee had been appointed, at which the noble Marquis | sidered, however, that a great part of the opposite (the Marquis of Lansdown) was difficulty and responsibility attending the a constant attendant; and certainly the settlement of such an important question, papers which were issued by it could alone in which so many interests were involved, be justified by the fact, that there had been had been obviated in consequence of the a full examination of all persons connected very comprehensive and diligent inquiries with the affairs of India, then in England. that had been carried on for some time past He thought it would be advisable, that this by means of Committees of both Houses of Committee should be renewed; for it Parliament. In point of fact, nearly all should be observed, that persons were con- the information that could be obtained, was tinually returning to this country from at this moment before Parliament, embodied India, and that the best information was, in the Reports of these Committees, and of course, to be derived from the last there was nothing to prevent both Houses comers. If, therefore, that Committee was coming to a decision as to the renewal of not renewed in time to take advantage of the Charter at a very short notice. For such evidence, he gave notice, that he these reasons Ministers had not deemed it would submit a motion on the subject. Not expedient, during the present Session, to only did he insist upon the re-appointment bring forward any measure on the subof the Committee on this account, but also ject. With respect to the noble Baron's because there was an urgent necessity that intended motion for the re-appointment at no distant period there should be a of the Committee, all he could then say full inquiry into the financial branch of was, that Ministers would take the subject the question, for, upon the view taken by into early consideration, and that ParliaParliament of the financial affairs of India, ment would find them most willing to cowould depend the question as to whether operate, not only in bringing forward every the commercial means were such as to information in their power, but also to assist enable the Company to carry on the govern-in making inquiries in every other quarter ment without any assistance, direct or from which additional information might indirect, from this country. The noble be derived. Lord concluded by moving for Returns connected with the financial branch of the EastIndia question-for the Reports of the House of Commons, and by giving notice of motion for a Committee. Earl Grey was free to acknowledge, that the omission of any allusion to the affairs of India, in the Speech from the Throne, was, as the noble Baron had inferred, owing to the circumstance that Ministers did not intend to bring any question relating to the important subject of Indian affairs before Parliament during the present Session. He would also acknowledge, that the noble Baron was partly correct in his statement of the amount of the duties of the President of the Board of Control. He would admit, likewise, the correctness of the noble Baron's statement, that very little consideration had been bestowed upon the subject on the renewal of the Charter in 1813. On that occasion, as the noble Baron had remarked, many noble Lords, and he acknowledged that he had been one of them, loudly exclaimed against the conduct of the then Government, in calling for so important a measure as the renewal of the East-India Company's Charter, with so little preparation; but he pledged himself, that ample time should be given for its discussion in all its bearings on the next renewal. He conVOL. IX. {T} Third Motion agreed to. POOR-LAWS.] The Marquis of Salisbury begged to inquire of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, whether it was his intention, or that of any other member of his Majesty's Government, to redeem the pledge given by the noble and learned Lord during the last Session, to submit some proposition to their Lordships for amending the present system of Poorlaws. He felt, that this subject was of vital importance to the country, and seeing that no allusion was made to it in his Majesty's Speech, he feared it was the intention of Ministers to overlook it for the present. The Lord Chancellor would not undertake to say whether it was, or was not, the intention of his Majesty's Government to call the attention of Parliament to this important subject, or, if they did, at what period of the Session it was probable they would do so; but this he would say, that if no other individual undertook the duty, he would undertake it himself, and unquestionably some measure on the subject would be brought forward by some member of his Majesty's Government. The Marquis of Salisbury: During the present Session? F The Lord Chancellor : Yes; certainly, he meant during the present Session. TITHES (IRELAND). ] Viscount Melbourne gave notice, that on Thursday next he would, pursuant to the recommendation in the Speech from the Throne, with respect to the payment of Tithes in Ireland, move for a Committee to inquire into the present Tithe-system in that country. Lord Cloncurry had a number of Petitions to present with respect to the payment of Tithes in Ireland, which he would take an early occasion to submit to their Lordships, but he could not forego the pleasure of taking that, the first opportunity, of stating the satisfaction he felt at the recommendation in his Majesty's most gracious Speech, on a subject so important to the best interests of Ireland. The tithelaws, in their present operation, were partial and oppressive-they had one measure for the rich, and another for the poor, though, he admitted, that to remedy the evils would be a measure of extreme difficulty. The Earl of Wicklow rose to order, and begged leave to remind the noble Baron, that it was irregular to enter into statements which were likely to provoke discussion, on giving a notice. The more regular course would be, to defer his observations until he brought forward the petitions. Lord Cloncurry said, that his chief object was, to express his thankfulness to Ministers for the very fair and considerate manner in which they had introduced the subject, by a recommendation from the Throne for the Parliament to take it into consideration. The opposition to the payment of tithes was chiefly among the small tenants, and if the landlords of Ireland would pursue a more liberal policy towards their tenantry, he was sure it would go far to mitigate the evil. The clergy he had ever found moderate in their demands. Lord Ellenborough begged to know, whether the prayer of the petitions intrusted to the noble Baron was merely for an inquiry into the operation of the tithesystem in Ireland? Aberdeen wished to know from the noble Earl (Grey) opposite, whether he was prepared to lay before their Lordships those documents which would throw light on the conclusion to which the representatives of the five Powers had arrived, with respect to the settlement of the question between the king of Holland, and Belgium? Earl Grey was not then prepared to state when the documents alluded to could be laid before the House, as the treaties had not yet been ratified. The Earl of Aberdeen said, the noble Earl well knew that the articles of that treaty had been published in every newspaper in the kingdom. In the whole course of the negotiations a considerable degree of mystery had been persevered in, which should be now cleared up. He would, however, then make no further observations on the subject, than simply to give notice, on the part of his noble friend (the Duke of Wellington), that the noble Duke would submit a motion to their Lordships on this subject, as soon as his health would permit. It was earnestly to be hoped that the health of the noble Duke would enable him to submit, as soon as possible, such a motion to their Lordships, because the affairs of the Neth rlands were arrived at such a crisis that the honour and justice— and, he would add, the character-of the country were materially implicated, Indeed, he felt this so strongly, that should the health of the noble Duke not permit him soon to resume his place in that House, he would take the responsibility of the introduction of the subject on himself, and submit a motion respecting it. ANATOMICAL SCIENCE.] The Earl of Harrowby begged to present a Petition to their Lordships, which he thought was entitled to their attention, coming, as it did, from able and respectable gentlemen, and couched as it was in proper and respectful terms. It was signed by the Chairman and Secretaries of the "Hunterian Society," meeting in Aldermanbury, on behalf of its several members. It set forth the great importance of the question, and that, so far back as 1828, the present Petitioners had ventured to call their Lordships' attention to it; that the state of the law loudly called for the consideration of their Lordships; that, as the law now stood, subjects could not be procured for anatomists without exposing the parties to prosecutions for misdemeanors, or prompting those parties to the commission of BELGIC NEGOTIATIONS.] The Earl of crimes which it was revolting to human. Lord Cloncurry: The petitions simply arraigned the partial and oppressive character of the tithe-system in Ireland. Lord Ellenborough said, it was most desirable, that all petitions should be referred to the Committee about to be appointed, in order that it might be clearly ascertained where the ground of complaint lay. nature to reflect on; that it was quite impossible for students, surgeons, and others, to attain expertness in, and the requisite qualifications for, their professions, without having opportunities to dissect human bodies; that in consequence of the state of the law, and of particular occurrences, the obtaining of subjects had become almost impossible; that the impediments thus thrown in the way of most important studies threatened to be most serious to society and that they therefore prayed their Lordships to institute inquiries, to ascertain whether any remedy could be applied to the evils and difficulties apprehended by the petitioners. This subject was of great importance in connexion with recent events, and he therefore wished the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would inform him, whether his Majesty's Ministers contemplated the proposition of any inquiry, or the introduction of any measure on this subject? The Lord Chancellor felt it to be his duty to state, that the subject appeared to him to be one, the difficulty of which was equalled only by its importance. However, he thought, in the present excited state of the public mind, it would be as well to avoid all discussion on the subject, and that it would be especially wise to delay any legislative measure regarding it till that excitement had abated. The Petition was read. The Earl of Harrowby, in moving that the petition do lie on the Table, remarked, that in presenting this petition he considered he had only performed his duty; but that, with respect to its prayer, which was for inquiry, he had no intention of originating any motion on the subject. Petition to lie on the Table. POLITICAL UNIONS.] The Earl of Winchilsea was anxious to learn from the noble Earl opposite, whether Ministers intended to bring forward any measure with a view to putting down those Political Unions and illegal combinations which, according to the noble Earl, were incompatible with good government, trenched upon the honour and dignity of Parliament, and were opposed to the rights and privileges of the Crown? It was the more necessary that they should have distinct information on this head, as but one Political Unionthat of Brighton-had dissolved itself, in obedience to the proclamation issued by the Government. The others had merely suspended their proceedings for the present. Earl Grey: In answer to the noble Earl, HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, December 9, 1831. MINUTES.] New Writ ordered for the Borough of Leo minster in the room of THOMAS BRAYEN, Esq., who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Bill brought in. Read a first time; to provide payment for Outstanding Lottery Tickets. Returns ordered. On the Motion of Sir FRANCIS BURDETT, the Parochial Rates, Taxes, and Assessments, paid by the Inhabitants of St. James's Westminster:-On the Motion of Mr. HUNT, the number, &c. of the Yeomanry force of England and Wales:-On the Motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, the number of Acres of Land under the Cultivation of Hops, in the year 1831, distinguishing the Parishes, and the amount of the duties on Hops, for the same year, distinguishing the old from the new duty:-On the Motion of Sir JOHN BURKE, of Fines levied on Jurors for nonattendance or other causes, during the last five years in Ireland. On the Motion of Mr. MABERLY, of all Hemp, Flax, and Linen yarn, the produce of Foreign Countries exported, and imported, during the year 1831; the same for the produce of Ireland; an Account of all British Linen Cloth exported, and imported, from different parts of the United Kingdom to Foreign Countries, and the amount for Home consumption, with an account of the Bounty paid upon exportation, and the amount of duties paid upon foreign Hides imported. Petitions presented. By Lord MORPETH, from Martin Stapylton, praying the House, that in any Reform which might pass into a Law, there might be included an Enactment to prohibit any person from taking his seat in that House, who should be, directly or indirectly, by himself or friend, guilty of any act of Bribery; and from the Landowners of Northallerton and its vicinity, praying that the county of York might not be included in the provisions of the General Registration Bill. By Mr. JOHN WOOD, from Persons in Birmingham, for the new Beer-shops to be placed on the same footing as Licensed Public-houses. By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, to the same effect, from Nottingham. By Mr. LABOUCHERE, for the abolition of the Duty on Soap. HIS MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.] The Speaker stated, that he had to read to the House, his Majesty's Answer to the Address, which was as follows: "I return you my sincere thanks for your loyal and dutiful Address, and for your assurance that you will make such provision as may be required for the public service. I rely entirely on your attachment to my person and government, and on your zeal ous co-operation in such measures as may be, calculated to drive them reluctantly to innecessary for maintaining the honour of my subordination, and almost to compel them Crown, and promoting the safety and welfare of my people." It was resolved, nemine contradicente, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, to return his Majesty the thanks of this House for his most gracious Answer to their address." GRAND JURIES (IRELAND.)] Mr. Leader rose to present a Petition from part of the county cess payers, in the important barony of Duhallow, in the county of Cork. The petitioners were the cess payers of the northern part of this district, and in which there had been no resident gentry for many years. They stated, they had paid a large amount of county cess, and had never received a remunerating shilling, in the way of presentment, within the district of their residence, while the other part of the barony, in which the Grand Jurors generally resided, was cut up into ornamental and circular roads. At the same time the charges to which the petitioners were subjected were increased annually by new valuations, and enlarged charges, without the smallest attention being paid to the honest expenditure of the sums raised for the benefit of the barony in general. The petitioners stated, That the applications to Magistrates at the Petty Sessions was a mockery; that their applications were sometimes passed at such Petty Sessions, but were regularly cashiered by the Grand Jury; that the mode of nominating Grand Juries was degrading to the administration of justice, as it led to a corrupt, partial, and wasteful expenditure of the public money; that some material changes ought to be made in the manner of appointing Grand Juries if such persons were to continue to have the irresponsible power of disposing of funds raised for the benefit of the public generally. The petitioners suggested, that if such large sums were to be annually raised, the cess payers ought to have the election of those by whom they were so severely taxed, and that, while the great county and barony roads were maintained by trusts or public Boards, the parishes should have the laying out of their own money; under the control of government engineers. The petitioners proceeded to illustrate the hardships of their situation, by shewing the severe local injuries they had endured, from the corrupt and improvident manner in which their funds were managed, which were so great, to use their own words, "that the neglect, oppression and injustice of the system were to acts of riot and disturbance." This petition was signed by several hundreds of respectable occupiers of land, and its prayer was fully corroborated by what had been stated at a meeting of the county-rate payers of Tyrone. They stated, “That the Grand Juries of Ireland are nearly permanent, and virtually self-constituted bodies. That in the county of Tyrone the great and influential majority of the Grand Jury now are either the same identical men who constituted the Grand Jury five-and-twenty years ago, or the heirs or successors of such of them as have, since that time, either died or been removed, holding very nearly the same places respectively on the panel, from year to year, to the present time; and that such is the constitution of Grand Juries throughout the kingdom. That bodies thus constituted are altogether beyond the reach of efficient control, and, like all oligarchical and irresponsible bodies, have a natural tendency to disregard trust, neglect duty, blink the public weal, and to co-operate, confederate, and combine with one another, to advance their own interests, and to protect their own creatures, for the purpose of screening their own corruptions. That the Grand Juries throughout the kingdom are generally composed of the second class of landed proprietors, and the agents of the great estates whose principals are, for the most part, absentees. That the parties to a Grand Jury presentment are most commonly the following description of persons: first, the head Overseer, who is almost always the agent for, or owner of, the premises through which any old road has been passed, or any new one is intended to be passed. This gentleman receives the money presented, from the county Treasurer, but makes no affidavit whatever, nor does he otherwise appear ostensibly in the undertaking. The person next in consequence to him, is the accounting Overseer, an inferior person, who is to the road jobbers in a county what the tithe proctor's viewing and valuing Bailiff is to him in the parish. To this man's conscience is intrusted the principal affidavit required by the law. Next downwards in the scale of degradation, are two persons, called by the county treasurers, applicants, and who are, in point of fact, persons still lower in degree than the accounting Overseer, and, generally speaking, his dependants. To these two last-mentioned personages, as the law now stands, is intrusted the initiation of all road presentments, and |