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Islanders' saying Torano for Solander, and their venient place nigh the quire, the men on the one side, and being, obliged to say but Polini when Tpolini the women on the other side.” would have been their equivalent for Sporing;
Bishop Montague, in his Visitation Articles, but that it is a polished substitute in the French 1638, asks : language, thus—action=acseon, while the English “Do men and women sit together in those seats inmake it in such cases = sh. Then, as to .r, we get differently and promiscuously ? or (as the fashion
was of that from k=ks=x, not only on the foregoing old) do men sit together upon one side of the church, and
women upon the other ? " natural principles, but because in the French word action, the ct = kt = ks= x, which
The custom prevails at Florence and in the as rational as Greek agg = ang English. As to diocese of Bayeux, also at Milan, Venice, Bopclassification, 8, the interchangeableness of landr part, and Bonn. In Brittany men occupy the being well known, the Society Islanders pronounc- nave, and women are seated in the aisles. In ing Solander Torani, and Sporing Polini, furnish Dutch churches the women almost always sit corroborative illustrations. In dealing thus with apart from the men; the former on rush-bottomed classification 11, as f is the twin of v, and v being chairs in front of the pulpit, the latter in pews. but a condition of b, as in the Manx bea= The Rev. S. W. King, in his Italian Valleys of y vea = the life, which peculiarity both Welsh the Pennine Alps (p. 225), says: and Gaelic exhibit; and as b is twin of p, and its
Remaining over the Sunday, in the absence of any natural equivalent, as in the Society. Islanders' English service, we went to the Vaudois church. The pronunciation of Bougainville, Potaviri, we bring women were ranged on one side of the centre aisle, the the matter to a close, clearly, I hope, though men on the other, and the costumes of the latter showed briefly explained, and, with the statement of my
that they were chiefly from the Protestant valleys, not
Turinese.” informant, I trust, confirmed. J. BEALE.
The following are a few examples (among many) of the observance of this custom in Eng
land: Durham Cathedral; Haversham, Bucks; STANTON HARCOURT: SEPARATION OF
Coton, near Cambridge ; S. Pratt, Blisland, CornSEXES IN WORSHIP.
wall; Westbury-on-Severn, Gloucester; Canon (4th S. ii. 132.)
Pyon, and Sutton S. Nicholas, Herefordshire; The division of sexes in public worship is of Hayes, Kent; Witton, Ditchingham, and Hemsby, the highest antiquity in the church. s. Cyril Norfolk ; Bulkington, Warwick. says, "Let a separation be made, that men be
Your correspondent asks for examples of a door, with men, and women with women in the church.”
as at Stanton Harcourt, used by females only, Socrates tells us that S. Helena (mother of Con- At St. Bride's (Kildare) there were actually two stantine) “ always submitted to the discipline of doors, two chancel arches, and a partition runthe church in this respect, praying with the ning along the centre of the nave from east to women in the women's part. s. Chrysostom
west. The north door of a church is often called says, “Men ought to be separated from women
traditionally the "bachelors' door." by an inward wall, meaning that of the heart;
Joun PIGGOT, Jun. F.S.A. but because they would not, our fathers separated them by these wooden walls.” Sir George Wheler, iu his work on the Primitive Churches, 1689, says :
THE COMYNS OF BADENOCH. “ That the men were anciently separated from the
(4th S. ii. 84.) women and the men again subdivided in the Latin Many thanks to ANGLO-Scotus for his extract church, also is manifest from that fragment of an inscrip- from Riddell's Peerage and Consistorial Law. The tion found at Rome and mentioned by Dr. Cave, ‘Ex dextra parte virorum. So that there were stations for
existence of Ademar Comyn was entirely unknown the men on the right hand and on the left; and that the
to me. His mother, however, is the most instation for the men is mentioned, it shows also that there teresting person to me. May I ask once more, was a distinct station or stations for the women ; for the does ANGLO-Scotus, or any other of your corvirgins also had a distinct station from the married respondents, know of any contemporary authority women, as Origen shows; which were undoubtedly either the aisles, on either hand, or the galleries over them, or
for identifying this Margaret, widow of John both, as it is in the Greek Church to this day.”
Comyn, with Margaret Wake de Lydel, afterwards
Countess of Kent? There is, I know, strong prePepys, in his Diary, seems astonished to have sumptive evidence; but I should be glad to asmy Lord Brouncker and Lady
certain the truth on this point beyond doubt.
Dugdale says that in 3 Ed. III.  Edmund In the first Prayer-Book of Ed. VI.-Rubrick Earl of Kent had livery of the lands of his wife in the Communion Service :
Margaret lying in Tindale, she being then the " Then as many as shall be partakers of the Holy widow of John Comyn of Badenoch (Baronage, ii. Communion shall tarry still in the quire, or in soine con- 93); and he concludes this John Comyn to have
been the Comyn who fell at Stirling, and of whose being still to be found on the Continent, whether wife Margaret Mr. Riddell found the notice re- in Northern Europe or in France, or even Spain. ferred to by ANGLO-Scotus. Is this proof suffi- It was so common a custom for the younger cient of the identity of these- Margarets ? or was sons of good Scottish families to seek their fortune there any other John Comyn of Badenoch whose in foreign countries, generally by arms, but somewife Margaret Wake could be ? Margaret Wake times also in trade, that it is no wonder that many was born in or before 1299 (when her father died), families are still found in the districts I have and therefore would be at least sixteen when mentioned, bearing good Scottish names, and unComyn was killed at Stirling.
doubtedly offshoots of the old Scottish stocks, Concerning Margaret Wake, is anything known although the actual connection is seldom traceof the date of her second marriage? Blore says able. (Hist. Rutland, pp. 38-9.), after enumerating her ANGLO-Scotus will, if my memory serves me, children-Edmund, John, Margaret, and Joan- find a pedigree of the “Cümines of Culter” in that:
vol. ii. of Nisbet's Heraldry.
C. E. D. “ Milles mentions two other sons, Robert and Thomas; but the space of time being little more than four years between the death of the Lord Comyn, the first husband of the Countess Margaret, and the death of Edmund,
ST. THOMAS-A-BECKETT AND SYON COPE: renders the statement very improbable.”
THE COPES OF WATERFORD, ETC. Now, instead of four years between the deaths
(4th S. ii. 65, 141.) of John and Edmund, there were no less than fif- P. A. L. asks how came the copes, chasubles, teen, as is witnessed by the Inquisition of Comyn, &c. mentioned by me (p. 66) as having been which, though not taken until 19 Ed. II. (1325-6], bestowed by Pope Innocent III. on the cathedral distinctly states that Comyn died on Monday, the church of Waterford, the property of the late Nativity of St. John Baptist, Anno 8 Edwardi 11. Right Rev. Dr. Foran, Catholic Bishop of Water[June 24, 1315]. As this Inquisition makes no ford, and presented by him to the Earl of Shrewsmention of his son Ademar, but asserts that his bury, Waterford, and Wexford, and placed at heirs were his two sisters, we may fairly conclude Alton Towers ?' P. A. L. adds, that had they that Ademar was then dead. Now, in 1315, Ed- been left in the cathedral, they would not have mund Earl of Kent was but fourteen years of age, been destroyed when Alton-Towers was burnt so that it may be presumed that his marriage with | down. Your correspondent F. C. H., as well as I Margaret did not take place immediately on the remember, in the previous number of “N. & Q." death of Comyn; but if we suppose it to have
states that the earl made a present of them to St. been delayed for five years after that event, there Mary's College, Oscott, and that they are in the was ample time for the birth of all the children
museum of that college. As to the query how mentioned by Milles, especially as we know from they became the property of Dr. Foran, I will his Probatio ætatis that one of them was a post- endeavour to explain. These copes, among other humous son. Are these two sons, then, Robert valuables, were disposed of soon after the introand Thomas, genuine children of Edmund Earl of duction of the new liturgy in 1551, by the then Kent, or is the insertion of their names a blunder, Dean and Chapter of Waterford to the Corporaconsidering that some who mention them omit tion of that city, in return for a bond in the penal Edmund and John, of whose reality there can be
sum of 4001., to the effect that if the Dean and no doubt? If Margaret Wake were the mother Chapter should be impleaded for the church of sons named Robert and Thomas, they must rights and lands, the Corporation should, from have died before 1351, if not before 1333.
time to time, give them as much of the value of HERMENTRUDE.
the “jewels” as should sustain their pleas at law.
And if the Dean and Chapter should afterwards I must be allowed to correct an error in my purchase any living for the use and maintenance remarks on the Cumine family (antè, p. 85). I of the church, the corporation should give them so there stated that the family of Cumine of Kinind- much as remained in their hands. The “jewels mond “is believed to be extinct.” By a courteous consisted of the copes, and of the following parcels communication from “A. R.” I find that this is a of plate : Two candlesticks of silver gilt, weighing mistake, as that family is represented, through the four score ounces; a cross of silver, double gilt, female line, by Mr. Russell of Aden, in Aberdeen- weighing 126 ounces; a standing cup of silver (á sbire, whose mother was heiress and representa- chalice), weighing 105 ounces; a standing cup tive of that branch of the house of Comyn or of silver (a chalice), double gilt, weighing 28 Cumine.
ounces; a cross of silver, double gilt, weighing When speaking of a Scottish family having 49 ounces; five censers of silver, “ whereof two become extinct, it must be kept in mind that there are partly gilt,” weighing 211 ounces; a monsis always a possibility of some of its descendants trant (a monstrance) with two angels of silver gilt, weighing 49 ounces, and other articles of NAKED LEGS AT COURT: SIR THOMAS LEE the same description, amounting altogether to (41 S. ii. 36, 68, 160.)-With regard to the quesseven hundred four score and seven ounces, at tion and replies which refer to the portrait of Sir the rate of five shillings the ounce. There was Thomas Lee of Ireland (No. 631), of the current much contention afterwards respecting those National Portrait Exhibition, where that worthy jewels, the value of which the Corporation re- is represented with naked legs and feet, I may fused to return. An order in Council, signed by refer HIBERNIA and others to a recent criticism on the Lord Lieutenant, appears to have been made that picture which appeared in The Athenceum against the Corporation on the 25th of May, 1637, for April 18 last. and a postscript to the order directs Richard Here a suggestion is offered which may satisfy Butler, Esq., Mayor, to restore " certain copes most of your readers, to the effect that the knight and vestments, which it is alleged he had in his was an enthusiastic otter-hunter, and consequently custody.” From what may be inferred, the mayor would need to uncover his legs in order to wade. had already disposed of the copes, vestments, &c., He bears a long, light spear (such as otter-hunor had made a present of them to the Catholic ters still use), with a loop of cord attached to the bishop or clergy at the time. For some few years middle of its length, so that it might readily be before, viz. in 1620, a crucifix, said to contain a recovered or held firmly. The background of the portion of the true cross, was presented to the portrait accords with this idea, being composed of same cathedral, and it contains the following le- such a stream and rough woodland as otters love, gend around the edge :
and probably reference to some favourite place of “ Ista particula ligni Sacratissimæ Crucis pertinet ad sport ; if so, this is one of the earliest landscapeEcclesiam Cathedralem Sanctissime Trinitatis Water- portraits known to me. fordie. “1.H.S. MAR."
Sir Thomas Lee can hardly be called an IrishAt the extremity is the date 1620. That these man ; it was he who hid himself under Queen treasures were carefully preserved, with a re- Elizabeth's bed in order by his intercession in ligious and wakeful care, during the subsequent private with her to obtain the pardon of his patron troubles, and again, after the reign of James II., the Earl of Essex.
F. G. STEPHENS. during the horrors of the penal times, is quite 10, Hammersmith Terrace, W. certain. It is by no means unlikely that the copes, &c., were purchased from Mr. Butler by some of his namesake, the Lord Mayor of London, 1558,
P.S. This knight is not to be confounded with the wealthy Catholic citizens of Waterford for their
church; hence they were handed down from whose second son Thomas was ancestor of Lord the Catholic bishop to his successor until they
Leigh of Stoneleigh, Warwick. came into possession of Dr. Foran, than whom
SWIFT (4th S. ii. 132.)— The eridence of the there never yet was a larger-hearted or more marriage of Swift to Esther Johnson (Stella) is open-handed prelate, and who thought that he of very dubious character. The ceremony was could best compliment John, the excellent Earl of said to have been performed by Dr. St. George Shrewsbury, Waterford, and Wexford, by be- | Ashe, Bishop of Clogher, in the garden of the stowing some of these treasures on him. Others Deanery, without witnesses ; and the actuality of of the copes, &c. remain in the Catholic cathedral this remains to be inferred from collateral circumof Waterford. The copes in that cathedral were stances, and the expressed belief of various friends five in number, about four feet in depth, and six and biographers. Powerful arguments in supin length, and gracefully meet, when placed across port of the contrary opinion have been brought the shoulders, in front. Three of the copes are forward by W. Monck Mason, in his History of of crimson, and two of them of green velvet, and the Cathedral of St. Patrick, to which Mr. Purnell are almost entirely covered with gold embroidery, may be indebted for his own conviction. On the which, after the lapse of so many ages, is light other hand, we have the statement of Lord Orrery, and splendid, though of course much used. A who, twenty-four years after the death of Stella, broad band of highly finished work, representing first promulgated the idea of the marriage. Devarious parts of Scripture history, occupies the lany seems to admit the fact in his Observations ; larger side of the cope. The figures are admirably so also the Sheridans ; Monck Berkeley, in his executed, and the countenances are remarkable valuable Literary Relics, 8vo, 1789; Dean Swift, for a variety of expression. The vestments are in his Essay, 8v0, 1755; Faulkner, and Hawkesworn under the copes. The dalmatics are like the worth. More latterly, Sir Walter Scott beliered vestments, except that they have sleeves. Dr. in the marriage, and collected all the existing Foran paid the highest compliment he could to information upon the subject, with some fresh the Catholic Earl of Waterford by giving them evidence; and lastly, W. R. Wilde, in his very to him. Query, may such of them as are there interesting Closing Years of Dean Swift's Life, not be asked for from the heads of Oscott College with Remarks on Stella, &c., second ed. 8vo, Dublin, for the Cathedral of Waterford ? M. LENIHAN. / 1849, has expressed his own inclination to the “ belief that the mere legal ceremony of marriage the De Imitatione Christi, let me remark that the was absolutely performed," pp. 103-7, to which locution is not confinedto that beautiful book. work I refer your correspondent.
Du Cange says in his Dictionary, sub voce: WILLIAM BATES.
“ Exterius discere pro memoriter discere, scripsit Birmingham.
Buschius de Reform. monastic. Scire exterius : locutio In answer to J. I., I can proffer him, if not the Belgica, ut observat Falconet.” best, a well-founded authority. Thackeray (Eng
A. R. lish Humourists) says it is undoubted that “Swift CLEANLINESS (4th S. ii. 47.)-Does not simplex was married with Hester Johnson (Stella).” munditiis allude to the neatness and cleanliness of But this author admits that“Esther Van Homrigh the young lady whom Horace is describing ? Had had contracted a violent passion for him.” Lord not Somerville that same much-vexed passage
in Orrery says: “Vanessa ... happy in the thoughts his eye when he wrote of a dog-kennel (“Chase,' of being reported Swift's concubine.” There is book'i. p. 10, line 147) – the version of Thackeray in the beginning of his
“ For use, not state, essay on Swift. This author admits that Johnson, Gracefully plain, let each apartment rise.” about the famous Stella and Vanessa controversy,
J. WILKINS, B.C.L. does not bear very hard on Swift. In the end, Thackeray says: "He (Swift) wanted to marry
“No Love Lost” (4th S. i. 29.) – This phrase, neither of them,—that
, I believe, was the truth; having the same meaning as it has in the ballad but if he had not married Stella, Vanessa would of “The Babes in the Wood,” occurs in a tale of have had him in spite of himself.'. . The news of the days of Shakspeare, entitled “Montchensey," the Dean's marriage with Stella at last came to her, which is contained in Noontide Leisure, by Nathan and it killed her. She died of that passion.'
Drake, M.D. (Cadell, 1824.) Shakspeare himself Scott gives a similar account. In a note in his figures as one of the characters. The following biography he says that his friend Dr. Turke, of words are put into his mouth by the author :--Dublin, has a lock of Stella's hair enclosed in a “Give me your hand, Master Simon, and let me tell paper by Swift, on which are written, in the you, to use a right pithy, though somewhat homely Dean's hand, the words “Only a woman's
hair." phrase, there is no love lost between us. I hope soon, inThe marriage of Swift with Stella seems beyond deed, to be better acquainted both with you and your
pupil Hubert, truant though he be !” all question.
OTTO MATTHIEU. . Belgium.
It may be inferred from the above that the
saying was in common use, with this meaning, in HESSAY (4th S. ii. 178) is in the eastern division the time of the great bard. D. MACPHAIL. of the Ainsty, formerly part of the county of the Paisley city of York, but now in the West Riding of York- GREEK MOTTO (4th S. ii. 94.)—I never saw the shire, and its name has for a very considerable offer of the Burton brewers referred to by T. C., period been spelt as above. A grant of land, how- but as the motto “Argentum auro vilius ever, from Osbern de Archis, high sheriff of the suggested by myself, I am not too proud to receive county, in the reign of Henry I., to the Abbey of the handsome prize” to which he alludes. (See the Blessed Virgin at York, runs as follows: “N. & Q.” 3rd S. v. 269.) “ O. de A. omnibus legentibus vel audientibus literas
P.J. F. GANTILLON. has salutem : Sciatis me dedisse et hac presenti carta Andover Place, Cheltenham. mea confirmasse Deo et S. Marie Eboraci et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus, in puram et perpetuam eleemo
P.S. While on this subject, I remember that, sinam et ab omni terreno servitio vel exactione liberas, on the presentation of a claret-jug to a colleague, vid:
in Hesseye duas carucatus et dimidiam “Viri nunc gloria claret,” * was suggested as the cum omnibus pertinentiis suis infra predictas villas et motto. extra
“ Pro anima domini mei regis Willielmi et pro anima MARC ANTONY AS Bacchus (4th S. ii. 36, 115.) patris mei et matris mee et omnium parentum meorum, I am much obliged to my friend MR. BUCKTON. nec non pro animabus omnium fidelium defunctorum. “Hiis testibus : Roberto de Brus, Alano de Munbi, et
My head is that of Marc Antony as Bacchus, and multis aliis."
not of Bacchus. It was never supposed to be
a Bacchus, as it is too old. My idea is that it
J. FORTI MUNBY, York.
was, as the style suggests, executed in the school
of Ephesus when Antony was there, and, after his WHISTLING IN YOUR Fist (4th S. ii. 154.)—In fall, mutilated. It is very likely another face my school-days, in Lincolnshire, this form of was substituted on the statue. AS MR. BUCKTON whistling used to be called the “thieves' whistle.” says, Ephesus produced good wine, but does so
J. J. M.
no longer, though there are plenty of wines on DE IMITATIONE CHRISTI (4th S. i. 603.)— With regard to D, J. K.'s letter on the Germanism in
* Ennius apud Cic. De Senect. iv. § 10.
the hills above Chirkinji. Samos still produces “Waly, Waly," printed in The Ballads of Scotgood Muscat.
HYDE CLARKE. land, i. 131, edited by W. Edmonstoune Aytoun. 32, St. George's Square, S.W.
I think Maria H. is wrong in asserting that they BUMMER (4th S. i. 75, 163, 467.)—Bummer is a
are part of either the ancient or modern “Gildeslang word used in this district to signify a per- spondents can throw light upon the subject which
roy. I shall be very glad if any of your correson who is given to talking in a boasting manner;
F. R. also, to one who utters much idle and foolish gave rise to this very fine old ballad. talk. It is only used among a certain class of Allingham's Nightingale Valley, ed. 1862, p. 238.—Ed.]
[The old ballad of “Waly, Waly,” is also printed in people. Those who are choice in their language
SUDBURGU (4th S. ii. 135.)-There is no place never use it.
Bumming is equivalent to “humming,” as the in Wiltshire named Sudburgh. The tomb of Sir bumming of bees. Bees are sometimes called here Robert de Vere is in the church of Sudburgh or bumbees. Hence, a bummer may be a person who Sudborow, near Drayton, in co. Northampton. bums like a bee, that is, utters a deal of empty See Halstead's Genealogies.
E. W. sound to no purpose.
D. MACPHAIL. BOOKS PLACED EDGEWISE IN OLD LIBRARIES Paisley.
(4th S. i. 577; ii. 44.) ANONYMOUS (4th S. ii. 156.)-- English Retraced, “ It was on the eighth morning of his residence at New by Rev. James Gurnhill, of 'Emmanuel College, Place that Montchensey, though still somewhat lame and Cambridge, now Curate of Sigglesthorne, near
occasionally suffering much pain, ventured, with the per
mission of his friendly physician Dr. Hall, to leave his Hull.
J. T. F.
chamber. On reaching the vestibule, he was shown by a Winterton, near Brigg.
servant into the library, with information that his masSIR WALTER RALEIGI'S DESCENDANTS (4th S. ter, who was at present engaged, would be with him in a
short time. ii. 164.) In my communication, after à This
“ This room, which Shakspeare called his own, had, Captain William Elwes had four or five sons, together with an eastern aspect
, a pleasant look-out into who all appear to have died (without issue),” &c., the garden, and was very neatly fitted up in the Gothic it should have been (without issue male). Might style, with carved oaken presses well stored with books, I ask you to put this in as corrigenda, otherwise front, and these decorated with silken strings, and occathe commencement of the communication contra- sionally with gold and silver clasps, in order to confine dicts the latter part of it, as I say that I believe the sides of the covers, not only contrasted well with the Mary Elwes was the wife of one of Capt. William dark hue of the oak, but gave a light and cheerful apElwes' sons, and that she leaves property to her pearance to the apartment.”—Noontide Leisure, i. 38, 39. daughter. (She was the widow of John Elwes, The author adds the following in a foot-note :the eldest son of Captain William Elwes, who “For a more minute account of the mode of arranging died sometime previous to 1763.)
and decorating books in a library at this period, see DUDLEY CARY ELWES. Shakespeare and his Times, vol. i. p. 436. South Bersted, Bognor.
Paisley. JASPER MAYNE: VERSES TO HENRIETTE MARIE (4th S. ii. 147.)–So little is known of the Arch
HUMBER (4th S. ii. 129.)-Your correspondent deacon of Chichester's writings as a poet, save his E. S. W. lives sufficiently near to Brough to know two comedies, that the general reader is much what acquaintance the Romans had with the obliged by Mr. Bolton CORNEY's communication Humber. His derivation from imber is, in a cerof a poem enshrined in a solitude far from the tain sense, not new. The most ancient district public eye. As attention has been called to com- Italy was Umbria; and in Etruria, which adpound words, at times better separated, I will joined, flowed the river Umbro, while in the
a lake called ask permission to refer to line thirty-five of this neighbourhood of the Tiber was pleasing effusion on a lady who, I fear me, little Umber. These names are generally derived from deserved the praise bestowed upon her:
imber (õußpos, meaning sometimes water), though “ Nothing did with thing agree.
the explanations are occasionally different. See, I think the sense would be more strongly marked for instance, Dr. Adam Littleton's Lat. Dict. S. v.
“Umbria.” The same learned lexicographer and by separating the first word : thus
divine derives umbra, a shade, likewise from this “ No thing did with thing agree.”
source, and adds: “Umbra à terrâ, cujus etiam Nothing did agree with any other thing. I hope color dict. veteribus, et inde ducta appellatio, humi not to be accused of hypercriticism.
chroa, xpóa, post humbra, umbra, i. terræ color.' J. A. G.
Humbra is given in Coles's Latin Dict. as Carisbrooke.
equivalent for Humber. This accounts for a stateOLD BALLAD (4th S. ii. 81, 165.)-W. J. C. ment made to me by a clever but eccentric schoolwill find the lines commencing. When we came master: that the Humber owes its name to its down through Glasgow town in the ballad of colour, being that of the Tiber - not the flavus of