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Islanders' saying Torano for Solander, and their
STANTON HARCOURT: SEPARATION OF
(4th S. ii. 132.)
The division of sexes in public worship is of the highest antiquity in the church. S. Cyril says, "Let a separation be made, that men be with men, and women with women in the church." Socrates tells us that S. Helena (mother of Constantine) "always submitted to the discipline of the church in this respect, praying with the women in the women's part." S. Chrysostom says, "Men ought to be separated from women by an inward wall, meaning that of the heart; but because they would not, our fathers separated them by these wooden walls." Sir George Wheler, in his work on the Primitive Churches, 1689, says: "That the men were anciently separated from the women and the men again subdivided in the Latin church, also is manifest from that fragment of an inscription found at Rome and mentioned by Dr. Cave, 'Ex dextra parte virorum.' So that there were stations for the men on the right hand and on the left; and that the station for the men is mentioned, it shows also that there was a distinct station or stations for the women; for the
virgins also had a distinct station from the married women, as Origen shows; which were undoubtedly either the aisles, on either hand, or the galleries over them, or both, as it is in the Greek Church to this day."
venient place nigh the quire, the men on the one side, and the women on the other side.”
Bishop Montague, in his Visitation Articles, 1638, asks: —
"Do men and women sit together in those seats indifferently and promiscuously? or (as the fashion was of old) do men sit together upon one side of the church, and
women upon the other?
"Then as many as shall be partakers of the Holy Communion shall tarry still in the quire, or in some con
THE COMYNS OF BADENOCH.
Many thanks to ANGLO-SCOTUS for his extract from Riddell's Peerage and Consistorial Law. The existence of Ademar Comyn was entirely unknown His mother, however, is the most interesting person to me. May I ask once more, does ANGLO-SCOTUS, or any other of your correspondents, know of any contemporary authority for identifying this Margaret, widow of John Comyn, with Margaret Wake de Lydel, afterwards Countess of Kent? There is, I know, strong pre
Pepys, in his Diary, seems astonished to have sumptive evidence; but I should be glad to asseen my Lord Brouncker and Lady in one certain the truth on this point beyond doubt. pew." Dugdale says that in 3 Ed. III.  Edmund In the first Prayer-Book of Ed. VI.-Rubrick Earl of Kent had livery of the lands of his wife in the Communion Service: Margaret lying in Tindale, she being then the widow of John Comyn of Badenoch (Baronage, ii. 93); and he concludes this John Comyn to have
"Milles mentions two other sons, Robert and Thomas; but the space of time being little more than four years between the death of the Lord Comyn, the first husband of the Countess Margaret, and the death of Edmund, renders the statement very improbable."
Now, instead of four years between the deaths of John and Edmund, there were no less than fifteen, as is witnessed by the Inquisition of Comyn, which, though not taken until 19 Ed. II. [1325-6], distinctly states that Comyn died on Monday, the Nativity of St. John Baptist, Anno 8 Edwardi 11. [June 24, 1315]. As this Inquisition makes no mention of his son Ademar, but asserts that his heirs were his two sisters, we may fairly conclude that Ademar was then dead. Now, in 1315, Edmund Earl of Kent was but fourteen years of age, so that it may be presumed that his marriage with Margaret did not take place immediately on the death of Comyn; but if we suppose it to have been delayed for five years after that event, there was ample time for the birth of all the children mentioned by Milles, especially as we know from his Probatio ætatis that one of them was a posthumous son. Are these two sons, then, Robert and Thomas, genuine children of Edmund Earl of Kent, or is the insertion of their names a blunder, considering that some who mention them omit Edmund and John, of whose reality there can be no doubt? If Margaret Wake were the mother of sons named Robert and Thomas, they must have died before 1351, if not before 1333.
I must be allowed to correct an error in my remarks on the Cumine family (antè, p. 85). I there stated that the family of Cumine of Kinindmond "is believed to be extinct." By a courteous communication from "A. R." I find that this is a mistake, as that family is represented, through the female line, by Mr. Russell of Aden, in Aberdeenshire, whose mother was heiress and representative of that branch of the house of Comyn or Cumine.
When speaking of a Scottish family having become extinct, it must be kept in mind that there is always a possibility of some of its descendants
ST. THOMAS-A-BECKETT AND SYON COPE:
P. A. L. asks how came the copes, chasubles, &c. mentioned by me (p. 66) as having been bestowed by Pope Innocent III. on the cathedral church of Waterford, the property of the late Right Rev. Dr. Foran, Catholic Bishop of Waterford, and presented by him to the Earl of Shrewsbury, Waterford, and Wexford, and placed at Alton Towers? P. A. L. adds, that had they been left in the cathedral, they would not have been destroyed when Alton-Towers was burnt down. Your correspondent F. C. H., as well as I remember, in the previous number of "N. & Q." states that the earl made a present of them to St. Mary's College, Oscott, and that they are in the museum of that college. As to the query how they became the property of Dr. Foran, I will endeavour to explain. These copes, among other valuables, were disposed of soon after the introduction of the new liturgy in 1551, by the then Dean and Chapter of Waterford to the Corpora→ tion of that city, in return for a bond in the penal sum of 400l., to the effect that if the Dean and Chapter should be impleaded for the church rights and lands, the Corporation should, from time to time, give them as much of the value of the "jewels" as should sustain their pleas at law. And if the Dean and Chapter should afterwards purchase any living for the use and maintenance of the church, the corporation should give them so much as remained in their hands. The "jewels" consisted of the copes, and of the following parcels of plate: Two candlesticks of silver gilt, weighing four score ounces; a cross of silver, double gilt, weighing 126 ounces; a standing cup of silver (a chalice), weighing 105 ounces; a standing cup of silver (a chalice), double gilt, weighing 28 ounces; a cross of silver, double gilt, weighing 49 ounces; five censers of silver, "whereof two are partly gilt," weighing 211 ounces; a monstrant (a monstrance) with two angels of silver
gilt, weighing 49 ounces, and other articles of the same description, amounting altogether to seven hundred four score and seven ounces, at the rate of five shillings the ounce. There was much contention afterwards respecting those jewels, the value of which the Corporation refused to return. An order in Council, signed by the Lord Lieutenant, appears to have been made against the Corporation on the 25th of May, 1637, and a postscript to the order directs Richard Butler, Esq., Mayor, to restore "certain copes and vestments, which it is alleged he had in his custody." From what may be inferred, the mayor had already disposed of the copes, vestments, &c., or had made a present of them to the Catholic bishop or clergy at the time. For some few years before, viz. in 1620, a crucifix, said to contain a portion of the true cross, was presented to the same cathedral, and it contains the following legend around the edge:—
"Ista particula ligni Sacratissimæ Crucis pertinet ad Ecclesiam Cathedralem Sanctissime Trinitatis Water
At the extremity is the date 1620. That these treasures were carefully preserved, with a religious and wakeful care, during the subsequent troubles, and again, after the reign of James II., during the horrors of the penal times, is quite certain. It is by no means unlikely that the copes, &c., were purchased from Mr. Butler by some of the wealthy Catholic citizens of Waterford for their church; hence they were handed down from the Catholic bishop to his successor until they came into possession of Dr. Foran, than whom there never yet was a larger-hearted or more open-handed prelate, and who thought that he could best compliment John, the excellent Earl of Shrewsbury, Waterford, and Wexford, by bestowing some of these treasures on him. Others of the copes, &c. remain in the Catholic cathedral of Waterford. The copes in that cathedral were five in number, about four feet in depth, and six in length, and gracefully meet, when placed across the shoulders, in front. Three of the copes are of crimson, and two of them of green velvet, and are almost entirely covered with gold embroidery, which, after the lapse of so many ages, is light and splendid, though of course much used. A broad band of highly finished work, representing various parts of Scripture history, occupies the larger side of the cope. The figures are admirably executed, and the countenances are remarkable for a variety of expression. The vestments are worn under the copes. The dalmatics are like the vestments, except that they have sleeves. Dr. Foran paid the highest compliment he could to the Catholic Earl of Waterford by giving them to him. Query, may such of them as are there not be asked for from the heads of Oscott College for the Cathedral of Waterford ? M. LENIHAN.
NAKED LEGS AT COURT: SIR THOMAS LEE (4th S. ii. 36, 68, 160.)-With regard to the question and replies which refer to the portrait of Sir Thomas Lee of Ireland (No. 631), of the current National Portrait Exhibition, where that worthy is represented with naked legs and feet, I may refer HIBERNIA and others to a recent criticism on that picture which appeared in The Athenæum for April 18 last.
Here a suggestion is offered which may satisfy most of your readers, to the effect that the knight was an enthusiastic otter-hunter, and consequently would need to uncover his legs in order to wade. He bears a long, light spear (such as otter-hunters still use), with a loop of cord attached to the middle of its length, so that it might readily be recovered or held firmly. The background of the portrait accords with this idea, being composed of such a stream and rough woodland as otters love, and probably reference to some favourite place of sport; if so, this is one of the earliest landscapeportraits known to me.
Sir Thomas Lee can hardly be called an Irishman; it was he who hid himself under Queen Elizabeth's bed in order by his intercession in private with her to obtain the pardon of his patron the Earl of Essex. F. G. STEPHENS.
10, Hammersmith Terrace, W.
his namesake, the Lord Mayor of London, 1558, P.S. This knight is not to be confounded with
whose second son Thomas was ancestor of Lord Leigh of Stoneleigh, Warwick.
SWIFT (4th S. ii. 132.)—The evidence of the marriage of Swift to Esther Johnson (Stella) is of very dubious character. The ceremony was said to have been performed by Dr. St. George Ashe, Bishop of Clogher, in the garden of the Deanery, without witnesses; and the actuality of this remains to be inferred from collateral circumstances, and the expressed belief of various friends and biographers. Powerful arguments in support of the contrary opinion have been brought forward by W. Monck Mason, in his History of the Cathedral of St. Patrick, to which Mr. Purnell may be indebted for his own conviction. On the other hand, we have the statement of Lord Orrery, who, twenty-four years after the death of Stella, first promulgated the idea of the marriage. lany seems to admit the fact in his Observations; so also the Sheridans; Monck Berkeley, in his valuable Literary Relics, 8vo, 1789; Dean Swift, in his Essay, 8vo, 1755; Faulkner, and Hawkesworth. More latterly, Sir Walter Scott believed in the marriage, and collected all the existing information upon the subject, with some fresh evidence; and lastly, W. R. Wilde, in his very interesting Closing Years of Dean Swift's Life, with Remarks on Stella, &c., second ed. 8vo, Dublin, 1849, has expressed his own inclination to the
"belief that the mere legal ceremony of marriage was absolutely performed," pp. 103-7, to which work I refer your correspondent.
In answer to J. I., I can proffer him, if not the best, a well-founded authority. Thackeray (English Humourists) says it is undoubted that "Swift was married with Hester Johnson (Stella)." But this author admits that "Esther Van Homrigh had contracted a violent passion for him." Lord Orrery says: "Vanessa... happy in the thoughts of being reported Swift's concubine." There is the version of Thackeray in the beginning of his essay on Swift. This author admits that Johnson, about the famous Stella and Vanessa controversy, does not bear very hard on Swift. In the end, Thackeray says: "He (Swift) wanted to marry neither of them,-that, I believe, was the truth; but if he had not married Stella, Vanessa would have had him in spite of himself... The news of the Dean's marriage with Stella at last came to her, and it killed her. She died of that passion." Scott gives a similar account. In a note in his biography he says that his friend Dr. Turke, of Dublin, has a lock of Stella's hair enclosed in a paper by Swift, on which are written, in the Dean's hand, the words "Only a woman's hair." The marriage of Swift with Stella seems beyond all question. Belgium.
HESSAY (4th S. ii. 178) is in the eastern division of the Ainsty, formerly part of the county of the city of York, but now in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and its name has for a very considerable period been spelt as above. A grant of land, however, from Osbern de Archis, high sheriff of the county, in the reign of Henry I., to the Abbey of the Blessed Virgin at York, runs as follows:
"O. de A. omnibus legentibus vel audientibus literas has salutem: Sciatis me dedisse et hac presenti carta mea confirmasse Deo et S. Marie Eboraci et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus, in puram et perpetuam eleemosinam et ab omni terreno servitio vel exactione liberas, vid: in Hesseye duas carucatus et dimidiam cum omnibus pertinentiis suis infra predictas villas et
"Pro anima domini mei regis Willielmi et pro anima patris mei et matris mee et omnium parentum meorum, nec non pro animabus omnium fidelium defunctorum. "Hiis testibus: Roberto de Brus, Alano de Munbi, et multis aliis."
J. FORTH MUNBY.
WHISTLING IN YOUR FIST (4th S. ii. 154.)-In my school-days, in Lincolnshire, this form of whistling used to be called the "thieves' whistle."
J. J. M. DE IMITATIONE CHRISTI (4th S. i. 603.)—With regard to D. J. K.'s letter on the Germanism in
CLEANLINESS (4th S. ii. 47.)—Does not simplex munditiis allude to the neatness and cleanliness of the young lady whom Horace is describing? Had not Somerville that same much-vexed passage in his eye when he wrote of a dog-kennel ("Chase," book i. p. 10, line 147) —
"For use, not state, Gracefully plain, let each apartment rise." J. WILKINS, B.C.L. "No Love LOST" (4th S. i. 29.) - This phrase, having the same meaning as it has in the ballad of "The Babes in the Wood," occurs in a tale of the days of Shakspeare, entitled "Montchensey," which is contained in Noontide Leisure, by Nathan Drake, M.D. (Cadell, 1824.) Shakspeare himself figures as one of the characters. The following words are put into his mouth by the author:
"Give me your hand, Master Simon, and let me tell you, to use a right pithy, though somewhat homely phrase, there is no love lost between us. I hope soon, indeed, to be better acquainted both with you and your pupil Hubert, truant though he be!"
It may be inferred from the above that the saying was in common use, with this meaning, in the time of the great bard. D. MACPHAIL.
GREEK MOTTO (4th S. ii. 94.)—I never saw the offer of the Burton brewers referred to by T. C., but as the motto "Argentum auro vilius" was suggested by myself, I am not too proud to receive the "handsome prize" to which he alludes. (See “N. & Q.” 3rd S. v. 269.)
P. J. F. GANTILLON.
Andover Place, Cheltenham.
P.S. While on this subject, I remember that, on the presentation of a claret-jug to a colleague, "Viri nunc gloria claret," was suggested as the motto.
MARC ANTONY AS BACCHUS (4th S. ii. 36, 115.) I am much obliged to my friend MR. BUCKTON. My head is that of Marc Antony as Bacchus, and not of Bacchus. It was never supposed to be a Bacchus, as it is too old. My idea is that it was, as the style suggests, executed in the school of Ephesus when Antony was there, and, after his fall, mutilated. It is very likely another face was substituted on the statue. As MR. BUCKTON
says, Ephesus produced good wine, but does so no longer, though there are plenty of wines on
* Ennius apud Cic. De Senect. iv. § 10.
ANONYMOUS (4th S. ii. 156.)-English Retraced,
Winterton, near Brigg.
SIR WALTER RALEIGH'S DESCENDANTS (4th S. ii. 164.)—In my communication, after "This Captain William Elwes had four or five sons, who all appear to have died (without issue)," &c., it should have been (without issue male). Might I ask you to put this in as corrigenda, otherwise the commencement of the communication contradicts the latter part of it, as I say that I believe Mary Elwes was the wife of one of Capt. William Elwes' sons, and that she leaves property to her daughter. (She was the widow of John Elwes, the eldest son of Captain William Elwes, who died sometime previous to 1763.)
DUDLEY CARY ELWES.
"Waly, Waly," printed in The Ballads of Scotland, i. 131, edited by W. Edmonstoune Aytoun. I think MARIA H. is wrong in asserting that they are part of either the ancient or modern "GildeI shall be very glad if any of your correspondents can throw light upon the subject which gave rise to this very fine old ballad.
OLD BALLAD (4th S. ii. 81, 165.)—W. J. C. will find the lines commencing "When we came down through Glasgow town" in the ballad of
[The old ballad of "Waly, Waly," is also printed in Allingham's Nightingale Valley, ed. 1862, p. 238.—ED.]
SUDBURGH (4th S. ii. 135.)—There is no place in Wiltshire named Sudburgh. The tomb of Sir Robert de Vere is in the church of Sudburgh or Sudborow, near Drayton, in co. Northampton. See Halstead's Genealogies.
BOOKS PLACED EDGEWISE IN OLD LIBRARIES (4th S. i. 577; ii. 44.)—
"It was on the eighth morning of his residence at New Place that Montchensey, though still somewhat lame and occasionally suffering much pain, ventured, with the permission of his friendly physician Dr. Hall, to leave his chamber. On reaching the vestibule, he was shown by a servant into the library, with information that his master, who was at present engaged, would be with him in a short time.
"This room, which Shakspeare called his own, had, together with an eastern aspect, a pleasant look-out into the garden, and was very neatly fitted up in the Gothic of which the leaves, and not the backs, being placed in style, with carved oaken presses well stored with books, front, and these decorated with silken strings, and occasionally with gold and silver clasps, in order to confine the sides of the covers, not only contrasted well with the dark hue of the oak, but gave a light and cheerful appearance to the apartment.”—Noontide Leisure, i. 38, 39.
The author adds the following in a foot-note:"For a more minute account of the mode of arranging and decorating books in a library at this period, see Shakespeare and his Times, vol. i. 436. p.
South Bersted, Bognor.
JASPER MAYNE: VERSES TO HENRIETTE MARIE (4th S. ii. 147.)-So little is known of the Archdeacon of Chichester's writings as a poet, save his two comedies, that the general reader is much obliged by MR. BOLTON CORNEY'S communication of a poem enshrined in a solitude far from the public eye. As attention has been called to compound words, at times better separated, I will ask permission to refer to line thirty-five of this pleasing effusion on a lady who, I fear me, little deserved the praise bestowed upon her: "Nothing did with thing agree.
HUMBER (4th S. ii. 129.)-Your correspondent E. S. W. lives sufficiently near to Brough to know what acquaintance the Romans had with the Humber. His derivation from imber is, in a certain sense, not new. The most ancient district of Italy was Umbria; and in Etruria, which adjoined, flowed the river Umbro, while in the neighbourhood of the Tiber was a lake called Umber. These names are generally derived from imber (oußpos, meaning sometimes water), though the explanations are occasionally different. See,
I think the sense would be more strongly marked for instance, Dr. Adam Littleton's Lat. Dict. s. v. by separating the first word: thus
"Umbria." The same learned lexicographer and divine derives umbra, a shade, likewise from this source, and adds: "Umbra à terrâ, cujus etiam
"No thing did with thing agree."
No thing did agree with any other thing. I hope color dict. veteribus, et inde ducta appellatio, humi not to be accused of hypercriticism.
J. A. G.
chroa, xpia, post humbra, umbra, i. terræ color." Humbra is given in Coles's Latin Dict. as an equivalent for Humber. This accounts for a statement made to me by a clever but eccentric schoolmaster: that the Humber owes its name to its
colour, being that of the Tiber-not the flavus of